Moving with Purpose: Why Fun Matters More Than We Think

Leena Manro (: 00:00

Welcome to Up to So Good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose-driven business so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation.

(: 00:12

Hello and welcome to Up to So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host, Lena Manro. Today's guest is a lovely human. She's become a friend and also she's worked with us on some client projects here at All Purpose. Her name is Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen. She is a professor as well as a marketing leader, a mother, and also someone who's known as being a doctor of fun. From helping to make Evo Car Share a household name here on the lower mainland to being a leader of corporate purpose of BCAA, to being a professor at Royal Roads College, Dr. Karly has made it her career to ask some questions that business leaders need to be asking more and more. And that is, "How do I make life better for the people and how do I make this planet better?" And then she took it a step further and got her PhD studying fun. Well, in the context of shared mobility.

(: 01:03

So in today's conversation, in addition to discussing all things purpose and business, we're going to unpack fun. What exactly is it? How does it differ from joy and from pleasure? Why is it important? And how can we add more into our own lives? Fun is one of those interesting concepts that we all think we know about, but then until you think about it, you think about it and you realize you don't really know exactly what it is, until today. And so I would say stay with us, enjoy this conversation and let's dig in.

(: 01:33

Hello and welcome to Up to So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. And today I have a wonderful, wonderful guest who is a client and a friend and a true renaissance woman. Today we are interviewing Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen, who is just kind of a master of many skills. And the through line seems to be a real commitment to purpose.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 01:59

That's right.

Leena Manro (: 02:00

Both individual purpose and corporate purpose.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 02:02

Yes, I hope so. And I'm glad that's coming through.

Leena Manro (: 02:05

Yes. Okay. Well, tell me about yourself, Karly.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 02:07

Okay. So about me, I'm a mother, a partner, an author, a teacher, a student, a researcher, and a marketeer. And so my background, I've really cut my teeth and kind of grown up in a small nonprofit you might know as the British Columbia Automobile Association, so BCAA.

Leena Manro (: 02:27

Yeah.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 02:29

And spent the bulk of my career building that brand up and the last decade actually on shared mobility. So for the uninitiated, BCAA, best known for roadside assistance, road safety insurance products, also is the parent organization of Evo Car Share. So I had the pleasure of building that brand and building it from the ground up, launching it about 11 years ago now. And it's become a staple in the landscape, the Vancouver landscape, Metro Vancouver and-

Leena Manro (: 03:04

It's wildly become a staple. I feel like Evo snuck up on us, and, all of a sudden, just sort of took over.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 03:11

Yeah. We have over 260,000 members. And so I always say behind shelter and food, transportation is one of the biggest needs and sometimes one of the biggest barriers for people. And so BCAA has a 120-year history, Evo a much shorter, 11. But having built the brand, I can tell you that we really built it with purpose in mind. So from decisions from the get go, a 100% hybrid fleet, we're starting to electrify now. We have waterless car washing. That was a-

Leena Manro (: 03:50

How do you wash a car without water? What is this?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 03:52

Yes. Yeah. So it's a special ... We sought out a supplier that has a ... It's basically a spray, but it doesn't require the amount of water that you would say go through a touchless car wash or with a hose. So it's very localized, and yeah, so we've got ... It's a spray. Wax on, wax off approach.

Leena Manro (: 04:15

And isn't there a stat with Evo? And we're going to talk about all these things. I mean, first of all, BCAA, we're big fans. I'm a very big fan of BCAA. People think of it and they think of road assistance, and there's actually so much more to BCAA. So that's one part. And then Evo, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about Royal Roads, you're a professor there. We'll talk about your beautiful dissertation about fun and joy, and the e-scooter, and what gives you personally purpose and also corporate purpose. So lots of things to get into. Let me go back to something I believe is one of the stats. And isn't it ... Actually, you'll have to refresh my memory, but every one Evo takes how many cars off the road?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 05:00

Yeah, nine.

Leena Manro (: 05:00

Nine.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 05:01

So that's from a study out of UC Berkeley, using car-to-go data or other car share data in Vancouver specifically. So they found for every car share vehicle on the road, nine private vehicles or personally-owned vehicles were removed from the road.

Leena Manro (: 05:18

And it feels like it's a commitment that if we are truly committed to climate action and climate change, embracing this model of shared resources like shared vehicles just has to be the path of the future, isn't it?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 05:33

Yes. And I think the paradox for us is as we grow and we have been growing steadily, it does still require the addition of cars. So as we grow, it does mean more cars, but on the bigger picture, it means less privately-owned cars, like less cars overall. So there's this unique paradox with the shared model, and it's one of the reasons why we're trying to electrify. We've added plugin and fully-electric vehicles to our hybrid fleet. So we're grappling with how we electrify more to even further reduce the environmental impact that we have. We've added e-bikes and e-scooters. So really trying to allow people to live a car-light or a car-free life that's convenient and affordable.

Leena Manro (: 06:23

I love it. Yeah. I see these people on these scooters all the time, and I'm still not brave enough quite to try one, but they seem to really enjoy it. And I just love this movement towards shared, shared, shared, shared. Why buy a car that just sits in your garage and uses up time, energy, resources when you can share and use it for only the things that you need? I mean, so I mean, I'm a client. I don't know if you knew that. Yeah, I am.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 06:49

Love it.

Leena Manro (: 06:50

And I'm also a client of BCAA. So BCAA is more than just road assistance. Tell us, what is BCAA?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 07:00

Yeah. So BCAA, it started 120 years ago with a handful of motor enthusiasts in Victoria. And since then we've grown. Now province-wide, we are not-for-profit. But 47% of British Columbian households have a relationship with us. So we're in many homes across the province, and best known for roadside assistance. We've got a lot of road safety initiatives and insurance, but my experience launching Evo and building Evo, truly with purpose, kind of from the ground up, it's not just who we are, but how we operate, got me tapped on the shoulder to lead our corporate purpose team at BCAA. And so I was able to lead the team for our inaugural impact report in 2023, which was voluntary reporting. We're not regulated, we're not required. We just felt like it was important to be transparent and to tell the people who we serve, what we're doing, where their money goes, and how we're reinvesting that as a not for-profit.

(: 08:12

One of the big strategic initiatives I was working on was our impact platform, which is Ours to Protect. So we feel like this is how we put the lens ... There's so many good things. There's too many good things out there. You can't be everything for everybody, so our impact platform really grounds us in the things that we want to focus on. And so we protect our planet, our province, and our people. And so it's our employees. We have 1400 employees, but also British Colombians. And so we do that in a few ways.

(: 08:49

Our flagship initiative is really around defending against wildfires. And so that was initiative that I got to lead and kick off, but it's really focused on sort of before, during, and after wildfire events, we're seeing a real increase in extreme weather conditions and how devastating they are to our province. And so we've made a few strategic investments. We partner with FireSmart BC, or we've invested over $300,000 in that partnership. We fund a role that didn't exist there before, that allows us to proactively reach out to vulnerable communities, First Nations communities. So we've got 18 of those communities under our belt, proactively helping them become more resilient, take steps to reduce the impact of a wildfire. We have over 250 communities overall, but those 18 are extra special.

(: 09:51

And we have partnered with the Canadian Mental Health Association to fill a training gap in mental health training for volunteer firefighters. Those are often the firefighters who are protecting our most remote and vulnerable communities. And we have focused on reforestation. So with Veritree as a partner, we are replanting in the wake of wildfire. So we've just planted 50,000 trees in Williams Lake, helping that recovery effort. So it's really an aim around this sort of 365 support. So we're not just road safety, but yeah.

Leena Manro (: 10:41

All the safeties.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 10:41

All the safeties.

Leena Manro (: 10:42

You're all the safeties.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 10:43

All the safeties.

Leena Manro (: 10:44

The thorough line of a lot of the work you've done has been around purpose. And I want to hear your story, because there's a lot of people who will be listening, who will be thinking, "Am I doing something that fulfills me? Am I happy? Am I on purpose?" And from knowing you, it appears you are. Correct me if I'm wrong-

Leena Manro (: 11:03

... purpose. And from knowing you, it appears you are, correct me if I'm wrong.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 11:04

I hope I'm on purpose. Yes, I try to be on purpose.

Leena Manro (: 11:07

And you're happy and you're living a purpose-filled life. So tell me, what has your journey been like? How did this start for you?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 11:15

Yeah. I mean, I think even from childhood, there was always questions around like, "Why am I me? What am I supposed to do?" And really finding joy in others. And I spent a few years in my undergrad figuring out... You go off to school and you have big dreams. And I was like, "What are these big dreams?" And I think I'd mentioned I grew up or cut my teeth and grew up at BCA. I fell into that organization and really grew up there. And the tenets of purpose were wrapped around me as I matured. And so I started my career there when I was 18. And I've done three degrees while I've worked there. So have been able to sort of fill those pieces of my life, pulling from different areas and grown. So it's very unique that both my career and my personal trajectory have, I think, overlapped or intersected in that way.

(: 12:24

And I've tried a lot of things. I've done a lot of things. And I think the through line through them has been finding meaningful outputs. And so even launching Evo was a milestone, I think, that it's unique in business from a marketeer. Most people inherit brands. Most people don't get to build them and launch them. And that's been my baby. But seeing the impact, it's, "I did this. I made this. It's out in the world and people using it. What people say, what people say about us and the brand personality and how we speak and how we do business." I put the guardrails in that when we partner with people, we privilege queer businesses. We privilege female or female identifying businesses. We privilege partnerships with people of color.

(: 13:25

And so those are things that are important to me and that I've been able to build into how the business operates and lead that both internally and externally and just the love that we've had as a business. And then that's carried through... It's definitely carried through into my education. As I mentioned, I've done three degrees. Most recently, my doctorate, and my focus has been on shared mobility. And as sort of that number three placeholder behind, we've got the hierarchy of needs, and transportation and mobility are distinct. I, for the purposes of this chat, conflate them. But mobility, it's your access to healthcare, it's your access to education, to your career, to your living, but it's access to community. It's access to who you are. So it's not just getting from A to B, it really is access to live. And so that was a jumping off point for really doing research and digging in and spending four and a half years really enveloped into why people are moving differently and why people are speaking about how they're moving differently and how they are finding joy in how they're moving.

Leena Manro (: 14:58

So your thesis... Once again, what was the title? Fun and...

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 15:04

So my dissertation is actually broken into three parts.

Leena Manro (: 15:09

Okay.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 15:09

So overall, the title is First to Last Smiles-

Leena Manro (: 15:17

Okay.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 15:17

... a play on first and last mile transportation. Let the Good Times Roll is sort of my keystone paper or the bulk of my research. And then I have another paper which was recently published in a peer review journal, which is A Roll Down Memory Lane. And it's a look at nostalgia and play and how that comes into place-

Leena Manro (: 15:43

Amazing.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 15:44

... in specifically e-scooter use.

Leena Manro (: 15:47

Oh, it is something that it feels like... First of all, you brought up a word love, and I think that's so powerful and so important and joy and fun and play. And these are all things that feel like they're missing from the corporate world. And it's a little sad, I think, that people feel that it's okay to be in an environment where they're working nine to five and they're devoid of those things, which are really the core of the human experience, isn't it?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 16:20

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 16:21

And you seem to have found that both in your work and in your research.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 16:26

Yeah. I think because, I mean, our jobs, they still are jobs, but we spend so much of our time there and we spend so much of our time with the people who we work with that what amiss to not have it find joy and find meaning in it.

Leena Manro (: 16:41

Oh, yes.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 16:42

And I try to bring that to my team, but also, it's part of who I am. It's how I identify my career, and some of the milestones along the way are who I am. And so yes, I think it's a lot of-

Leena Manro (: 17:01

It is who you are.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 17:02

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 17:02

And I've worked with you. It is who you are. Tell me about what your research uncovered.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 17:08

Yes. So maybe I'll take it back to how it all started. And so having spent over a decade in shared mobility, really paying attention to how people speak about how they behave when it comes to how they get around and being really attuned to that. And in 2017, 2018, shared e-scooters showed up. They started on the West Coast in California. They just showed up unpermitted and took off. And so just being in the industry and being like, "Oh, this is new. What's happening here?" And we visited some market. Me and a colleague of mine were like, "We need to go see what's happening."

(: 17:55

So we were in Portland and along the West Coast and hearing people say things like, "I feel like a kid again. That was so fun." And I'm sorry, unless you own a Ferrari, you're not really speaking like that about your bus trip or your commute and your personal vehicle. The way people were speaking about how they were feeling and why they were trying this new mode, certainly there's a novel component to it, but how they were speaking was fundamentally different. And I was like, "Ah, there's something here and I need to know more. Why is this?" And in particular, this aspect of fun. I mean, who doesn't want to study fun?

Leena Manro (: 18:37

I want to say, I want to do fun-

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 18:37

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 18:38

... all day long. I love fun.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 18:39

Yeah. It's fun, it's fun. There's this playful nature and I was like, "There's something here. I need to dig a little deeper." So I focused around that. So my dissertation looks at what... It is what is ultimately what is causing people, aside from some of the utilitarian reasons, to adopt new modes of specifically shared e-scooter use that cities and corporations and policy makers can influence to increase lower emission modes and encourage mode shift. That's sort of the big point, but really also focusing on fun as this factor. So I had to confirm first that like, "Is fun really playing a role here in spoiler alert? It is. But then what does fun mean?" So as I was digging into the literature, there's a big gap in literature around what fun is and how it's distinct. So there's a lot of research around hedonism, pleasure, wellbeing. That's all very well studied. Even joy to, a certain extent, has been documented and researched, but fun was left out. It's-

Leena Manro (: 20:03

Well, I think I'm conflating joy and fun.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 20:05

Yeah. I think that happens.

Leena Manro (: 20:05

Oh, my!

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 20:06

I think that happens.

Leena Manro (: 20:08

Okay. Define fun.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 20:10

Academically... Well, basically, this is what my research sought to do is, intrinsically, we feel like you can feel joy, but maybe not have fun. You can be joyful. You can take a stroll outside. It can be wonderful, pleasant, but would you necessarily describe it as having fun? And people were telling me-

Leena Manro (: 20:34

That's a good point.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 20:35

... "No."

Leena Manro (: 20:35

Yeah.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 20:36

"Maybe not." I can have joy without fun, but sometimes they do coexist, but they are distinct. And so part of my challenge was trying to figure out, "Well, what is fun?" First off, people are bandying it about, say, "That was a fun thing that I did."

Leena Manro (: 20:57

Is this fun? This podcast, is it fun? Are you having fun?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 21:00

I think you can have fun.

Leena Manro (: 21:01

[inaudible 00:21:02].

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 21:01

There's an edge of, "Am I going to say the wrong thing?" But it's borderline on that component of fun. And so what I found is, fun was made up of a few things, but I think it was largely forgotten about in academic literature and as a subject of academic investigation, because it's really seen as trivial, it's childlike, it's not important.

Leena Manro (: 21:27

Yeah.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 21:28

And I would argue very much that it is.

Leena Manro (: 21:29

Yeah.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 21:30

And so it's made up of a few things. One is a sense of social connectedness. So it's possible to have fun by yourself, but you're typically with others. There is that connection. There's a physicality to it. Oftentimes, if you're on a rollercoaster, or, I don't know, as kids speeding down a hill, there's that feeling wind in your hair. All of these things is what participants were describing their fun experiences.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 22:02

... Participants were kind of describing their fun experiences. So there's this physical lived experience, a social connectedness, and a few other elements that really kind of make fun distinct from pleasure. And it's the nuance, I think, in that that really helps us understand our experiences and understand ourselves better.

Leena Manro (: 22:25

Interesting. Now I'm starting to understand a little bit better. So you're saying, "All right, if you take a bite of a wonderful decadent chocolate cake, that's pleasure. It may bring you joy. It's not necessarily fun."

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 22:39

Correct. Exactly. Exactly. And I think one of the key components is that you can't have fun forever. It's a finite period of time. There's these peaks and valleys you can't. There's the happiness treadmill as well. It is this finite experience. And so I think understanding kind of how fun comes about for people, and it is individual, it is subjective, but in general, how fun comes about and how people experience fun and how that may or may not overlap with other positive emotions and experiences enables us to not only better understand ourselves, but create the right circumstances in which people can experience fun more often. So how do we... I don't think you can manufacture fun, but I think you can set yourself up for more fun experiences.

Leena Manro (: 23:39

I think, "Wow, this is so fascinating." I feel like this is going to be a podcast mostly about fun, as it should, right?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 23:45

Sure.

Leena Manro (: 23:47

I think maybe there's something about being intentional and having a commitment to add fun to one's life that is missing from our society.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 23:57

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 23:57

Because it is, like you just said, it's considered trivial, not important.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 23:59

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 24:01

And of course, there's also... I was just thinking about how unhealthy it would be if you tried to strive for fun all day long. I made a joke about how I just want to have fun all day. I mean, sure. But the truth is, there's many things that we must do that are not necessarily going to be fun, but are very important. I mean, there are plenty of mothers who are very happy they have children and survive childbirth. And I can assure you, they're not going to call it fun, right? Are you one?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 24:29

I have experienced the miracle that is childbirth.

Leena Manro (: 24:33

Yeah, was it fun? Was it fun, Karly?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 24:35

I would not categorize it as fun. I would categorize it as deeply meaningful, very fulfilling. And I think some of the joy I get from it is having fun through my son's eyes, but again, it is that fleeting moment.

Leena Manro (: 24:51

But I'm sure that moment of actually having a baby was not fun. I think my point is that there's a lack of commitment, I think, intentional commitment towards cultivating fun in our lives and how different the world might be if we all did that.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 25:07

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 25:08

Did your research uncover what the world could be like or what people could be like, societies could be like if we had more fun?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 25:15

Not specifically that, but I think because it was focused on the way people were moving, and so it was narrow in the sense of how do we... Again, that higher level goal of how do we mode shift and how do we understand not just, "Okay, this is more affordable," like the utilitarian motives, but really the more emotional components that go into decision making and experiences and lived experiences? And so one of the really interesting things is you're talking about being a mother and childbirth is this connection to childhood because that typically is where we have that freedom and we play the most and there is this inherent connection to fun and fun experiences. And so nostalgia for a lot of people, in particular with e-scooters, a lot of millennials grew up with Razor scooters. And so this is a memory from their childhood or they would liken it to riding a bike.

(: 26:16

And so we would tear off until the streetlights came on on our bikes. And this was this really coming of age experience that was tied really tightly with experiences of fun. And so that is coming through and it's so interesting that this is coming through in the decision to, "This is how I'm going to get to work today," or, "This is how I'm going to get groceries today," or whatever it is. And in terms of what they have to do in sort of the mundane components of life, that this is their kind of like their break or their spark or just that little sliver of joy that helps them get through sort of the heaviness.

Leena Manro (: 27:02

Now, that must have been actually quite maybe a fun experience, to study fun, even though it's in the very specific world of the mobility piece. Did you glean other insights about what fun is and maybe how we can apply that in our own lives?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 27:19

Yeah. So I think the general tenets... Obviously, more studies to be done, but the general tenets are there. I think if you enable a environment in which... So freedom was a big one, a sense of social... Being socially connected to others. There's an intensity there that is that sort of temporal or that limited timeframe. We're not doing this all day. It is, "We're going to the amusement park and it's going to be a couple hours," and that's it. Things like that where you can start to set the stage for fun to happen, but at the end of the day, it really is a spontaneous experience. So all you can do is kind of lay the groundwork, lay it out there, set it up.

Leena Manro (: 28:12

That's where you said you can't manufacture it.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 28:13

You can't manufacture it, but you can do your best to set it up in a way that people are most likely to have fun. And even talking about humor, like you go to standup comedy or you have a friend who's telling jokes, there's an element of fun in that, but sometimes even that humor can be a little bit distinct from fun as well. Sometimes jokes are at somebody's expense, and so that is not necessarily fun for all parties. So I think it really is this understanding of fun as this intersectional... It's a cluster emotion. So it's usually found with other things, but it's not the same as. And so yeah, all the things that we kind of think about that are typically fun are kind of maybe co-located as opposed to synonymous.

Leena Manro (: 29:09

Oh, okay. Yeah. Co-located as opposed to the same as.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 29:13

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 29:14

Okay. All right. So that'll require some thought. I really haven't thought about fun in-

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 29:20

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 29:21

So what drew you to a topic like this?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 29:24

Yeah. I think it really was, again, that germ of being attuned to launching shared mobility, having that grounded sense of how important it is, and then seeing how distinct and different this novel form e-scooters were taking and how people were experiencing it really piqued my interest. And then as you kind of get under the hood, so to speak, of what that actually meant, it really opened up like, "Oh, we don't really know what this is." If you really were to define it, if you're going to go up to somebody on the street and say, "Okay, what is fun?" It's really challenging.

Leena Manro (: 30:06

Yeah, you wouldn't think it is.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 30:08

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 30:08

It's one of those things you don't really think about. You just take for granted. And now I'm realizing now I haven't thought about it.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 30:15

Yeah. And I mean, that's what academics do. They dig deep and they may overcomplicate [inaudible 00:30:21]-

Leena Manro (: 30:21

They just mess things up.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 30:24

Right. But with the ultimate goal of clarifying exactly what our experience as humans are, and that's at the end of the day.

Leena Manro (: 30:32

Yeah. It's sort of like you pull it apart so that you can piece it together so you can build upon it and apply it in all these different ways and think about it from different places. Was there a part of you personally that was also just curious about that?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 30:44

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think as a personal value or personal goal, I like to think of myself as a fun person, somebody who's fun to be around. And the idea at the outset of my doctoral journey, to be like Dr. Fun, and to-

Leena Manro (: 31:06

I was going to ask you, I didn't want to offend you, but I was like, "Oh, I want to call her Dr. Fun."

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 31:09

Yeah. I mean, and it's not like nobody out there. There's some really interesting researchers that maybe are more qualified to be Dr. Fun than I am, but yeah, to be Dr. Fun and to be the bringer of joy and the bringer of all of these co-located emotions to people-

Leena Manro (: 31:30

Yes. There could be more than one Dr. Fun.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 31:32

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 31:32

It's fine.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 31:32

The Dr. Funs.

Leena Manro (: 31:33

Right?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 31:35

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 31:37

Okay. Oh, this is a little bit of a different topic. I would say that even now it makes a lot more sense actually. You are a professor as well with Royal Roads University and we have had the pleasure, myself and our CEO of All Purpose, Robin Ashmore, we've been brought into your classrooms at times-

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 32:00

Yes, thank you for coming.

Leena Manro (: 32:00

Oh gosh, we love it. We absolutely love it. The last one, I think we Zoomed in from Washington DC-

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 32:05

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 32:05

You were out there on a business trip. And it's so funny because at the end of it, we were... To be honest, we were both very tired. We were looking forward to it. You were wonderful to work with because you had said to us, "Do you want to do a presentation or just be available for questions?" And because we were so busy at that point, it made more sense just to be there and answer questions. And honestly, at the end of it, we realized we'd both had a lot of fun. So Karly, I think it's you. I think you're bringing that energy where you go and as you're holding court and you're a professor of these students, you're bringing these elements of fun. Do you know that you do that? Are you aware?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 32:46

I think there's an element that I'm unaware of that I think that is natural to me and that is why I gravitate to that in my studies. But then there is a part of me that tries to intentionally bring that to everything that I do.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 33:03

... bring that to everything that I do.

Leena Manro (: 33:04

It was a really joyful experience. I hope that we were okay. I mean-

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 33:08

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 33:09

I think everyone enjoyed it.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 33:10

Yes. I think everybody is inspired, so I am, as associate faculty at Royal Roads, I teach marketing, and it's this really interesting paradoxical, like as a marketeer, you often grapple with our role is increasing consumption and selling, but the other side of that is what is our role in society, and how do we do that in a way that's responsible?

Leena Manro (: 33:38

Yes.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 33:38

So-

Leena Manro (: 33:39

And that's what we talked about.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 33:40

Yes, and so having you and Robin in the classroom, kind of bringing that real-life this exists, I think is really, really inspiring. I always say, "Know better, do better." There's no perfect answer, but having a seat at the table, or making that next step, or doing that next thing that makes life better. That's how we get there, you know? It's one foot in front of the other.

Leena Manro (: 34:09

And is it called... Is that sort of a commonly known sort of understanding, something about it being responsible corporate marketing, sustainable corporate marketing? What is this area called?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 34:22

I think there's a ton of different... You know, ESG is in the mix. I think that's maybe being phased out, corporate social responsible, purpose now. Corporate purpose is really taking over, and so I think there's a ton of different... The lexicon is wide.

Leena Manro (: 34:44

Yeah.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 34:44

Yeah, for-

Leena Manro (: 34:45

So it's basically there's marketing, and then there is sort of this purpose-driven marketing.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 34:52

I think they're collapsing. I think you can't have marketing now without an element of understanding what your business and what your role as a marketeer is in doing... Impacting. Regardless, you're going to have an impact, so I think in the past, they have been separate things, and now more and more, they're getting closer and closer together. So I think you can't have one without the other now. I think as marketeers and educating sort of the next-

Leena Manro (: 35:21

That's how it is now?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 35:22

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 35:22

We're currently on. And that's because consumers have demanded this, do you think?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 35:26

I think they have. I think there's just an overarching awareness. I can say a lot of people coming into the organization, so whether that's Evo BCAA or the various industries that I see through teaching. Having values at the forefront of wherever you are employed is more and more important, so it's not just consumers who are demanding it. It is those in the workforce looking for purpose, and what they're doing, and the impact that they're having. So anybody who's going into marketing or business has that at the forefront. You know, they're reading impact reports, they're understanding what organizations are doing, and they're really excited about it, and they go, "Okay, I want to be a part of doing this." So I think it's both. I think it's consumers, but I think just generally, that's the way we're heading.

Leena Manro (: 36:20

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's so good, I think, that the world is heading in that direction, for both of those reasons, one for the demand from the consumer side and also the demand from the creators, from the marketers, from the students who are graduating who want to embrace this as a career path. I think it's a beautiful thing when more and more people are driven by, "What gives me purpose? What's giving my company purpose?"

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 36:43

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 36:43

We could talk about where you see the industry sort of heading.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 36:48

Yeah. Yeah. I think more shared everything is on the horizon, so not just vehicles, but people are going to be sharing... I mean, we're already sharing homes, but the value of ownership is far less important to people now than it used to be. So if I need a lawnmower, people aren't necessarily going out and buying it. There's this need to, I guess, just rent for the time you need and not have to have this feeling of ownership. So I think that's a really interesting value that we're kind of letting go as a society, is this notion of-

Leena Manro (: 37:28

I sure hope so.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 37:28

... ownership.

Leena Manro (: 37:29

Yeah.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 37:30

And yeah, so I think car share, I think you'll continue to see it proliferate, but where I think it's really headed is in the micro-mobility space. I think cities in particular are really pushing, city planners' policy is really focused around car-free and really low-carbon options, and really, the health of cities. So for those really short, and by short maybe under 2K trips, really trying to fill the gaps with micro-mobility, shared vehicles, and then we're seeing autonomous, like robo taxis and autonomous vehicles being piloted in certain cities in North America. I think Atlanta just got robo taxis. They're in Texas, California, so that's going to be a really interesting one, because it's a shared vehicle, but I'm not sure it hits the same feeling, the same sense of community, when-

Leena Manro (: 38:30

That's just it.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 38:31

I'm not sure.

Leena Manro (: 38:32

I think it feels like maybe that was an unintended consequence of potentially sharing, is that it pulls you into community. And I wonder if that's what people are aching for, and maybe they don't realize it, is the benefits of community, you know? In order to share your neighbor's lawnmower, you need to get to know your neighbor, you know?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 38:49

Yep.

Leena Manro (: 38:50

And there's also an element of potentially, or potentially, I suppose, of fun. And after learning about research like yours, maybe... I mean, maybe there are some answers, or some solutions lie in intentionally creating those communities where it is shared homes, or at least like a shared lot. I love the tiny home communities that are popping up. I think that's so amazing. I feel like that's in the cards for me, like a retirement on a shared lot, with family and friends, and having communal spaces. I mean, then you've got everything. You've got the people. You've got community. You've got fun.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 39:28

Yep.

Leena Manro (: 39:28

You've got a plan to help sustainability, because it's not working. All this individualism is not working.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 39:36

It's not. And I mean, if you look at the macro forces that really are, I mean, it's around affordability. People can't afford to own things. I mean, I think the-

Leena Manro (: 39:43

That's true.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 39:43

... values are changing, but it's really hard to justify some of the costs. The cost of living is going up. People are really worried about the environment. People are really worried about their health and their wellbeing, so making some of those broader shifts into the sharing economy.

Leena Manro (: 40:03

Right? Oh, absolutely, yeah. And how about for you? Are you going to do another thesis, another... Are you writing a book?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 40:11

Maybe.

Leena Manro (: 40:12

You're writing a book, aren't you?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 40:13

So, a couple things.

Leena Manro (: 40:14

She's writing a book.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 40:16

I am considering postdoc work, so more research. I've published part of my dissertation, because there were three components to it. I have another journal article that I'm waiting to get published, so working in the peer reviewed space. And then also feeling like that creativity and a doctorate in research is a meaningful undertaking, but it's heavy, so feeling really like a creative outlet is missing right now for me. So going back to a different kind of school and looking at creative writing through screenwriting. So that's going to be my next adventure.

Leena Manro (: 41:00

That's really exciting.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:01

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 41:01

You're going to make a feature.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:02

Maybe.

Leena Manro (: 41:02

A feature, maybe TV show.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:05

Maybe TV show. We'll see.

Leena Manro (: 41:06

Yeah?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:06

Yeah, I don't know if it's... Yeah, a series or a feature. I think I've got a few... I've got a lot of ideas kind of swirling around, so really trying to figure out what-

Leena Manro (: 41:18

We'll have to have a conversation.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:19

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 41:19

I've gone down this path. I'm still toe-dipping in it in a few other... I've got a few projects with a few producers right now, and I kid you not, it is some of the hardest but most rewarding work ever. It is super fun.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:34

Super-

Leena Manro (: 41:35

Fun. Now that I know what fun is, defined, the physical and... Oh, but I'm by myself often. That's not fun.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:41

You can... It's not that you can't. It's just that there is a social connection, so that could be through story, you know? Right?

Leena Manro (: 41:47

Oh, that's true.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:47

To your characters.

Leena Manro (: 41:50

In our imagination.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:50

To the audience, yes.

Leena Manro (: 41:51

The social connection in our minds.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:52

Yes. I think it's a sense of feeling connected. It's not like you... People absolutely have fun-

Leena Manro (: 41:57

Oh, I'm so glad.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 41:57

... on their own.

Leena Manro (: 41:58

Because I do have fun with the voices in my head, so-

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 42:00

I have-

Leena Manro (: 42:01

They're great. They're lovely.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 42:02

All of them.

Leena Manro (: 42:03

All of them.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 42:03

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 42:03

Yeah.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 42:04

Yeah. So yeah.

Leena Manro (: 42:06

All right, well thank you so much for joining us here on-

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 42:08

Yeah, happy to do it.

Leena Manro (: 42:09

... Up to So Good. Karly is definitely someone who is up to so good. Do you want to sing it?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 42:14

Okay.

Leena Manro (: 42:14

Can you do it? Ready?

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 42:15

Sure.

Leena Manro (: 42:15

Karly, you are up to so good.

Dr. Karly Nygaard-Petersen (: 42:17

Up to so good.

Leena Manro (: 42:20

Well, that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us, and if you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button, or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions, or comments, or show ideas, you can email us directly at hello@allpurpose.io. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time.