Many Paths, One Purpose: Madeleine Shaw on Social Entrepreneurship and Sustainable Business
In this episode, we chat with Madeleine Shaw, a serial social entrepreneur, author, and changemaker whose work spans sustainable menstrual products, upcycled fashion, and community driven initiatives.
Madeleine first made her mark in the early 1990s by founding everyware designs, a sustainable design studio, and later co‑founding Lunapads (now Aisle), one of the world’s earliest B Corporations to commercialize reusable, eco‑friendly menstrual products. Through Aisle, she helped build a sustainable menstrual care category and contribute to menstrual health education and access in communities around the world.
Madeleine’s first book, The Greater Good: Social Entrepreneurship for Everyday People Who Want to Change the World, distills her philosophy that business tools can be powerful vehicles for social change, and invites more people to bring their unique vision into purposeful work.
Today, she continues to explore creative, regenerative practice from upcycling textiles and teaching sewing workshops to mentoring emerging changemakers, all rooted in a deep belief that all purposeful projects can help reshape how we live, work, and care for each other.
I am a serial social entrepreneur, designer and author based on unceded traditional Coast Salish territory. I have founded and co-founded multiple for-profit and charitable organizations, most notably Aisle (formerly Lunapads), a groundbreaking B Corporation that was one of the first companies worldwide to champion sustainable menstrual health and equity. In 2025 I re-launched everyware designs, the fashion label that I originally founded in 1993. Lunapads were among hundreds of products, accessories and garments that I designed and made until 2000, when I elected to dedicate myself to Lunapads' development. Following the sale of the company in 2023, I felt called to revisit my former creative passion, this time through upcycling. My first book, The Greater Good: Social Entrepreneurship for Everyday People Who Want to Change the World, was published in October 2021. (she calls herself a textile alchemist)
@everywaredesigns on Instagram
We talk to visionaries and game-changers who are doing things differently; using their businesses to do more good in the world. Join us as we dive into the stories and strategies of companies driven by purpose, not just profit. Each episode uncovers unique strategies, challenges, and the deeply satisfying rewards of using business as a platform for change. We offer listeners practical insights on building businesses that are not only successful but also socially and environmentally conscious. You really can make both profit and a positive impact—come join us to find out how others are doing just that.
Leena Manro is an award-winning writer, director, and co-founder of All Purpose, an award winning B Corp-certified creative agency based in Vancouver. As VP of Strategy and Storytelling, she leads an in-house team that creates powerful, purpose-driven media for corporate clients. With over a decade of experience, Leena has directed hundreds of narrative projects across diverse genres, earning awards for their cinematic quality and storytelling depth.
Leena is driven by a passion to make a meaningful difference in her community, environment and the planet. She’s drawn to collaborating with people and initiatives that strive to make the world a better place.
All Purpose is proud to be B Corp certified. B Corps are companies verified to meet high standards of social and environmental performance, transparency, and accountability. The B Corp Movement transforms our economy to benefit all people, communities and the planet.
Through this podcast, one of our aims is to showcase the impactful work of fellow B Corps, to inspire others to embrace purpose-driven practices that make a difference.
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Transcript
Welcome to Up to So Good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose-driven business, so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation.
(:Hello and welcome to Up to So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host, Leena Manro. Today's guest is a very inspiring and lovely person and also a very good friend of mine. Her name is Madeleine Shaw, and she calls herself a serial social entrepreneur. She is the author of a book called The Greater Good, and it's all about social entrepreneurship. It's a very inspiring and a wonderful book.
(:She's also currently a fashion designer, using upcycled and recycled fabrics to create beautiful, beautiful outfits and purses. And she was one of the founders of Aisle, which is a company that makes reusable menstrual products.
(:In addition to talking about social entrepreneurship and purpose-driven businesses, there's a wonderful part of the conversation where we talk about her journey in giving up alcohol. This was a really interesting and inspiring part of the conversation that, I hope, inspires and encourages others to take a similar step. I mean, she says that she lives her life in technicolor, and I believe it. She's a really vibrant person, and this is a really fun interview. I hope you enjoy listening or watching it as much as we did. Thanks.
(:Hello and welcome to Up to So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host, Leena Manro. On today's show, we have a wonderful, very much a favorite person of mine, actually. Yes, Madeleine Shaw, you are.
(:This is Madeleine Shaw. I gave away her name. You are a favorite person of mine. You're a woman of many, many, many talents, a founder of a social enterprise, an author, a fashion designer. I mean, those are just the things that I know, but I feel like there's even more. There's a lot more.
(:And so today, we're going to be talking about purpose and business and all kinds of things. And I feel like we'll even get into a bit of a discussion about soul purpose because you talk about that a bit in your book, which I love. And we're going to talk about, also, some things that have to do with, that have been positive experiences that you're going through and you've gone through. I want to delve into that.
(:I feel like we're going to be talking about a lot of things on this episode. So, where do we start?
Madeleine Shaw (:Wow. Well, I'm deeply honored to be here. And your words mean so much to me, given the depth of skill and talent and creativity and accomplishment that you yourself hold. But I think you and I have always felt a connection, ever since we met. And Deb was asking me, she's like, "How did you meet Leena?" And I'm like, "I don't remember. She's just always been, somehow, in my range of attention," and-
Leena Manro (:That's so wild. I think the exact same thing! I was trying to think of it this morning. I was prepping, and I was thinking, "When and where did we meet?"
Madeleine Shaw (:Doesn't matter! Could have been way longer than we could ever ...
Leena Manro (:I couldn't ...
Madeleine Shaw (:You know what I mean?
Leena Manro (:Yeah.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Maybe it was a past life.
Madeleine Shaw (:Maybe.
Leena Manro (:Maybe.
Madeleine Shaw (:I don't know.
Leena Manro (:Did we get together one day here? Were we-
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, we ... Singing?
Leena Manro (:We were singing.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. We were singing in here. We were the only two people in this whole beautiful, massive space. And we wandered around, and we had this huge conversation, and we drank tea. And I think you were the one ... Or maybe you got me singing too, because singing is not one of the many things that I do, generally, but you sang, and I think I might've joined you because you made it safe for me to do that, and ... Up on the balcony, upstairs.
Leena Manro (:We used to do this a little bit in the show. I don't know. Should we do it? Madeleine Shaw is << Up to So Good >>
Madeleine Shaw (:I am up to so good in more spellings-
Leena Manro (:But would you sing it?
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, I am-
Leena Manro (:Ready? << Up to So Good >>
Madeleine Shaw (:<< Up to So Good >>
Leena Manro (:Yeah. We were ... At that time, I think ... I feel like it's been a while since we've seen each other, but my measurement of time isn't very strong, so it feels like no time has passed. But actually, when I think about it, I don't think it was last year. I think it might have been the year before.
Madeleine Shaw (:It was the year before.
Leena Manro (:The year before.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:And I had started learning more about sacred singing and Kirtan, which is a call and response. Very connected to my lineage. And so that's what we were doing. We were singing mantras.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Right?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:And it's not something that we do here every day, by the way. This is what makes you one of my favorite people-
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, thank you.
Leena Manro (:... because you were like, "Yeah, let's do this." And it was super fun.
(:But let's talk about, how would you define yourself? Yes. Who are you?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, and so, thank you. That's a big question. So, I am a person who's deeply creative and has had a really big interest in sustainable, socially responsible business practices for a long time, like decades. But at heart, it's kind of all about creativity.
(:I call myself a regenerist, meaning that I look for opportunities to take old ideas and bring them into the present moment for some form of benefit. So it's a creative practice; it's not just a values-based practice. And these days, I am calling myself a textile alchemist.
Leena Manro (:Textile alchemist! I love it, because ... So I mean, do you want to start there, with the present work you're doing, or do you want to start from-
Madeleine Shaw (:Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that idea because that is the most, sort of, relevant. If people look for me online, then that is what they will see. And if they get curious about the past, then they can go and look into that too.
Leena Manro (:Sure. We'll talk a little bit about that too, because it's so fascinating. The work that you've done with menstrual equity, for example, and creating sustainable period products. And then again, going into your background before that. Fashion design and how that connects to today and your work as an author. I mean, there's so many things. But let's start first with, currently, the ... What was it? The regenerist?
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, textile alchemist.
Leena Manro (:Textile alchemist. Okay.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Yeah, I love that.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. So what that means, practically ... And people, just as a bit of background, why would I say I'm a textile alchemist? So, to me, the idea of alchemy is that it's an ancient practice, most famously practiced when people try and magically transform stone or lead or iron into gold. But it's become this idea in popular ... Well, not even popular culture; it's an ancient, ancient, ancient idea around transformation, and that we can take something that may not apparently be much, but through various transformational processes, make it into something amazing.
(:So in my version of that today, I'm an upcycling fashion designer, so I make garments and accessories, 100%, with upcycled fabric. So I don't use any new fabric at all.
Leena Manro (:Ah, that's amazing! I wish everybody did that, honestly. Not that I want to flood your competition, like your world, with competition, but it's just amazing that you do this.
Madeleine Shaw (:Well, thank you. But I actually do want everybody to do this.
Leena Manro (:Yeah, that's good. I do too.
Madeleine Shaw (:And because it's like, yes, I ... So when I used to be a fashion designer in the mid '90s, there was this idea of my brand and my label and my ideas and my creativity, and I would make things and sell them to people in my store. And that was kind of a very well-accepted paradigm. That was just kind of how you did it. And even earlier today, one of your team members asked me, "Well, where are you selling the things that you make?" And I started to answer that question by saying, "Yes, I'm making things, and I love making things, and if people want to buy them, that's great. But what I really want to do is teach other people how to do this."
Leena Manro (:Beautiful. Yeah.
Madeleine Shaw (:Because it's such a powerful practice, and everything that you make, by definition, is one of a kind because it has to be. And so there is no other like it, literally, in the world. And therefore, just this idea of competition just sort of goes away because you can't-
Leena Manro (:That's right. That makes sense actually.
Madeleine Shaw (:It's not relevant.
Leena Manro (:You're right. You're right.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. And-
Leena Manro (:I never looked at it that way. That's beautiful because it is so unique. It is so one of a kind. Oh, yeah. You're limited by only your imagination. So it sounds like the source of the textile, to make what you want, the source becomes that which has already been used, and you're upcycling. And that's tremendous.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, it is tremendous. And the more deeply I get into it, I really ... My entire design rationale changed. So in the before times, in the 90s, I'd say, "I have an idea for a dress, and I'm going to find a certain kind of fabric, and I'm going to cut it a certain way, and then it's going to look a certain way," and whatever. And now, my design rationale, I call it a "whole animal approach." So I'm trying to literally use every single shred of whatever it is that I upcycle.
(:And so that drives the design philosophy in a very different way, and it makes it kind of just more challenging, but also, I don't know, I really enjoy it. It's kind of liberating too. And I've also let go of any of the rules I ever learned about sewing or grain or ... Anyways, that'll be meaningful to people who sew. But the way things are supposed to be done. And so I do it in a very intuitive, very transgressive way-
Leena Manro (:Ah, that's so cool.
Madeleine Shaw (:... from a technical sewing perspective.
Leena Manro (:Well, you're also, you're hosting ... Are they monthly workshops on upcycling?
Madeleine Shaw (:I hope they become monthly. I've got one coming up next weekend, and I've already hosted them in Kelowna and in Whitehorse in 2025, and we'll just see what the demand is. My dream, at this point, and this is further to proliferating this idea, is to actually work with charitable thrift stores to help them upcycle their waste fabric because I think ... I hope most people know the unfortunate truth that-
Leena Manro (:They don't. Would you like to share? We've talked about it a bit on previous podcast episodes, but go ahead.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. No, you had an incredible interview with Sophia Yang, who had-
Leena Manro (:Yes, she was outstanding.
Madeleine Shaw (:Incredible. Yeah. So most of the clothing that is donated in good faith to thrift stores never ends up being sold or used, and ends up being disposed of in various unsustainable manners-
Leena Manro (:Landfills, yeah. Some get-
Madeleine Shaw (:Yep. Beaches, shipped overseas. So less than 10% of any of all textiles are ever actually recycled.
Leena Manro (:Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that's alarming.
Madeleine Shaw (:It's a very difficult thing to do. It's really hard, especially with things like denim, where there's rivets and metal bits and zippers and stuff like that. It's practically impossible to do. So you might be able to do it with something like cotton T-shirts. Okay, sure. But even then, it's less than 10%, and you're already dealing with a textile that is incredibly water intensive to produce. The reality is we already have way more clothing than we can ever need or use that already exists on the face of this planet right now.
Leena Manro (:For the entire world.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah!
Leena Manro (:It's true!
Madeleine Shaw (:Like, forever. We don't need anything, and yet we keep producing it because capitalism, but also the pleasure of self-adornment. Like, you are one of the most wonderfully stylish people I can think of, and you-
Leena Manro (:So sweet.
Madeleine Shaw (:And you are, right? They can see this necklace that you chose and this coat that you're wearing and the shoes that you're wearing and ... Like, everything. It gives us pleasure, and it helps us know who we are. And so that's why this pleasure of making something new is so powerful because it's saying, "This is who I am, and I'm excited about this, and I want to feel confident," or "I want to feel sexy," or "I want to feel like ..." whatever. It's how we do that. And that's a healthy, beautiful, human thing. So I'm not saying nobody should want to self-adorn or do that. I'm just saying it can be done, in the case of textiles and fashion, in a far more sustainable manner.
Leena Manro (:Absolutely.
Madeleine Shaw (:And also, one that engages. Everyone can be a fashion designer. Leena, everyone can do this.
Leena Manro (:It's so beautiful.
Madeleine Shaw (:Right?
Leena Manro (:I could do this? I kind of want to be a fashion designer.
Madeleine Shaw (:I'll teach you. I'll teach you.
Leena Manro (:I might come to your workshop this weekend, actually.
Madeleine Shaw (:Come! I would love to see you. Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Now, this is probably going to air, unfortunately, it was after the workshop, but we'll continue to ... You have a website that people can look at.
Madeleine Shaw (:I have a website.
Leena Manro (:What's the website?
Madeleine Shaw (:It's everywaredesigns.ca.
Leena Manro (:Everywaredesigns.ca. Okay.
Madeleine Shaw (:And that's spelled W-A-R-E, not W-H-E-R-E. Because it's "wares."
Leena Manro (:Because "wares," yeah. So this weekend is a workshop, but there's also another one on March 15th. On Sunday, March 15th. And yeah, I hope that people, this drives a little bit of traffic there.
(:And I'm not even kidding. I would love to be a fashion designer. I don't know how. I don't know anything about sewing and all, but I love, also, the idea of being very conscious about the choices we wear, literally that we're wearing, and also our sourcing, the sourcing of the materials. And upcycling what's actually already there is just, it's such a conscious and such a fabulous way to a path to sustainability.
(:Ever since we started this podcast, I will say, for me, talking to social entrepreneurs has changed, personally, my own mindset. So thank you. Yes, I do like to, I guess, dress. I'm not wild about it. I don't know anything about fashion, really. I don't know anything about couture or anything like that, but now, I will say, I buy far less. And when I do, I'm very mindful about, "What is it made of, how is it sourced?" And so I've discovered, over the last, I guess we've been now going on for about a year, the last few years, how much that means personally to me. And I feel like it's life-changing. I no longer look at clothing and fashion the same way at all.
(:Once you discover the harm that fast fashion, especially, but fashion in general, causes the environment, the people, and the planet, you can't unknow what you know.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, it's true. It's really true. And I would add, as an added incentive to get you to come to the workshop is that there is no better feeling than going to a party or walking down the street and somebody saying, "Where did you get that?" and you say ...
Leena Manro (:"I made it!"
Madeleine Shaw (:You!
Leena Manro (:"I made it!"
Madeleine Shaw (:"I made it! I made it."
Leena Manro (:"I made it with these old jeans." Yes.
Madeleine Shaw (:That's right. That's right.
Leena Manro (:So, okay. On that note, I believe you're wearing-
Madeleine Shaw (:Yes, I am.
Leena Manro (:... some original creations.
Madeleine Shaw (:I am.
Leena Manro (:I would like to-
Madeleine Shaw (:And I brought a couple with me too, yes.
Leena Manro (:Oh, you know, it's funny because I didn't know that you had created that when you walked in. The first thing I saw, I was like, "Oh my gosh, you look so lovely." I loved your outfit.
Madeleine Shaw (:Thank you.
Leena Manro (:And then our CEO, Robin, he came out, and he complimented you as well. And that's when you were talking about how you had made these, which is just, wow.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:So I guess, for those who are listening, you're not going to be able to catch the beautiful outfit.
Madeleine Shaw (:I can describe it, though. I can-
Leena Manro (:Well, we're going to describe it, and for those who are watching on YouTube, you can catch it. And if you're listening and you want to catch what she looks like, join the YouTube channel. Just come and join us, and you can see this. Okay.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Do you want to describe it for us?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, absolutely. So I'm wearing a jacket, like a blazer style, traditional business-cut jacket that's made out of 100% upcycled denim, as well as a bit of vintage fabric.
Leena Manro (:Ooh, that's nice.
Madeleine Shaw (:I put the cuffs, just faced them with, I don't know, some very interesting vintage fabric that actually came from my mother-in-law. It was her parents' bedroom curtains, and this fabric had been sitting in an attic, and she literally pulled it out of a trunk and gave it to me. And yeah, it's from the 1950s.
Leena Manro (:That's so cool.
Madeleine Shaw (:I know, right? And this is another aspect. It's like, yes, there's sustainability. Yes, there's the ability to express yourself really creatively and really individually with upcycling, but there's also the stories that are in the garments and the textiles that we're working with. And to me, the fact that this bit of fabric, these cuffs, came from where they came from, that has this familial attachment. And just imagining my mother-in-law's parents sitting in their bedroom, hanging out in whatever in the 1950s, I'm like, "That is so cool."
(:And so yeah, it's a beautifully made jacket that ... I love the disruption, also, of taking a fabric that's traditionally associated with work ... What's more blue-collar than denim? And making it into a really stylish, fitted, super fitted at the back-
Leena Manro (:Oh yeah, it's very fitted.
Madeleine Shaw (:... very attractive, professional-looking jacket. And I'm also wearing a skirt that is also made of 100% upcycled denim. And then I put this little bit of vintage linen ruffle around the bottom because that is my second favorite fabric to work with. And so, just again, this duality of kind of more masculine, workman-like fabric, and then taking this kind of feminine thing there. So that's what I'm wearing, but I also brought with me a couple of other things.
Leena Manro (:Where did the linen come from? Vintage linen?
Madeleine Shaw (:A friend of my mom's.
Leena Manro (:Oh, okay.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. So, my mom is 90, and she's amazing. And her friends now, I've discovered this whole rich vein of vintage linen thanks to mostly elderly ladies who have been holding onto familial linens for generations. Like tablecloths and table runners and napkins and all these beautiful things that today are no longer really used.
Leena Manro (:Right.
Madeleine Shaw (:When's the last time you used a tablecloth?
Leena Manro (:Yeah, that's true.
Madeleine Shaw (:Most people don't. But tablecloths are some of the finest linen that you ... Look what I brought.
Leena Manro (:Oh, wow. Okay. Okay.
Madeleine Shaw (:Okay? So this is what happens to tablecloths if you leave them with me. So, I'm holding up a blouse-
Leena Manro (:Ooh, that's so cool!
Madeleine Shaw (:... a one-of-a-kind tunic blouse.
Leena Manro (:That's lovely.
Madeleine Shaw (:And you can see, it's very simple. And that was made out of a vintage, an old tablecloth. And so, another, again, back to this whole animal approach. Like the sleeves, I've preserved the original corners of the tablecloths. So that has determined how this is cut. The hem is the original hem of the tablecloth. You can see I've repaired it here a little bit because it was torn, because these ... They're not new. And I love when you can see-
Leena Manro (:This is gorgeous.
Madeleine Shaw (:... you have a garment that tells the story, not just of what it is now, but what it was.
Leena Manro (:Yeah.
Madeleine Shaw (:And so, from a sewing point of view, this is very easy to make. It doesn't look like it, but it totally is. And so that's another huge focus for me is the linen because it's just such good quality fabric. They literally don't make linen ... The textile isn't processed the way it used to be. It's on different equipment that was designed for cotton, and people ... Everything's got to be faster and cheaper and la-la-la-la-la-la.
(:And so, I'm working, in some cases, with tablecloths and things that are, I don't know, decades, hundreds of years old, but because it's such high quality, it's not actually fragile. It's tough as all get out, and it's amazing to work with. Yeah.
Leena Manro (:So for those who are listening, again, if you log onto YouTube, you'll be able to see some of these creations. But what Madeleine has shown is this lovely cream-colored tunic, and the design is so intricate and so beautiful. And the actual quality, this is something that I feel might retail in the hundreds. You're not going to find something like this, because the quality of the linen. This is not something that is easily found.
Madeleine Shaw (:Nope.
Leena Manro (:Oh, wow.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. Yeah.
Leena Manro (:What else do you have? I see-
Madeleine Shaw (:I have one more thing, and this is really important because this is what sort of precipitated this whole story is like, okay, so the timeline for people ... So I had my store called Everyware Designs, and sort of '95 to '98, '99, met my business partner, Suzanne, in 1999. And we decided together to develop a line of reusable menstrual products called Lunapads that I had created but not really done much with. And because I had all these other things ... And she was like, "Hey, I really want to work with you to take this somewhere."
(:So anyways, long story, she and I end up working together for 25 years. We established this whole category of reasonable menstrual products and kind of get it to a level where people are like, they know period underwear, they know what that is. Menstrual cups. People are literate and interested. We broke down a ton of stigma. We got the attention of governments all over the world to participate in menstrual equity issues.
Leena Manro (:Beautiful.
Madeleine Shaw (:We literally changed the conversation and laid the groundwork for an entire, what is now, a billion-dollar industry worldwide. So, thank you very much. Awesome. So that happened.
(:And then we sold the company in 2023, and I'm still ... Do this. I still work for SFU's Charles Chang Center, and I mentor student entrepreneurs, and I work for a social venture consultancy called Purple, and that's really helpful.
(:But in 2025, things started to shift for me. And so the biggest thing that happened was that my dad passed away really suddenly in March of 2025. And at that point, I wasn't doing any of this upcycling, really. I still had ... I could make anything, I could sew anything, and I knew that, but I didn't really have the space to do it. Anyways, my dad died, and I felt weirdly ... I just had this weird vision of taking his neckties and making them into a skirt to honor him. So I did that.
Leena Manro (:Oh, that's so sweet. Oh my goodness.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. So I made this skirt out of ... So it's just a skirt made out of neckties, literally, that is quite ... Anyways, it was really therapeutic for me to do it. It was so much more than just realizing a creative vision. It was really like, "Whew." It was a great way to process grief.
(:It was a great way because we can talk about grief, but for me, having an embodied, physical practice of sewing really helped me. And yeah, so that was like, "Okay, this is an important thing," this realizing that it had this kind of ... And which is not ... I don't know, garments carry energy. Everything we make, everything we wear carries a charge, right? And so it just kind of brought me that realization, and also that there could be this therapeutic, cathartic quality to using my creativity to process my grief.
(:And so yeah, I wore this to eulogize him at his celebration of life, and it felt so good. And all of his work colleagues were there, and everybody recognized the ties and whatever.
Leena Manro (:So sweet.
Madeleine Shaw (:And people were laughing. And it was just this wonderful, kind of a joke that I knew that my dad would get because we always had these conversations about feminism and women and work and whatever. And so here, all of a sudden, this very traditionally masculine, professional accessory has been transformed into this other thing. So that was huge.
(:And then the other part of it was I was working for Purple, and I got hired to work with a charitable thrift store in Kelowna, BC, to help them diversify their revenue. Now, I didn't know anything about thrift store economy. I just knew what I might buy at a thrift store or why one would do that in a very rough sense, but I didn't really understand the business model behind them.
(:Anyways, and I also didn't realize how much waste there is in thrift stores, like how we think that everything gets sold, and it doesn't. And so part of the problem that I was brought in to address was to find ways to reduce waste for them by figuring out, "What are other ways to sell all these jeans?" And jeans and T-shirts, by the way, are the number one and two things that-
Leena Manro (:That are wasted?
Madeleine Shaw (:That are wasted. And I mean, if you think about it, it's so much to do with fashion. It's not just about the things being worn out. It's like we were all wearing skinny jeans until a couple years ago, and now we're all wearing super wide jeans. And guess what? That's going to be over one day too, and then the thrift store is going to be filled with wide jeans because they're not in fashion.
Leena Manro (:Honestly, I hope that's never over because I love my wide jeans.
Madeleine Shaw (:I know.
Leena Manro (:I do.
Madeleine Shaw (:Me too, me too.
Leena Manro (:I'm wearing wide pants now. I will wear wide pants for decades. They're so comfortable.
Madeleine Shaw (:I'm so with you.
Leena Manro (:People in the '60s and '70s, they knew.
Madeleine Shaw (:Exactly.
Leena Manro (:I don't know why skinny jeans ever became a thing. Ew.
Madeleine Shaw (:I don't know. I don't know. So uncomfortable.
Leena Manro (:So uncomfortable.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Yeah. So unnecessary.
Madeleine Shaw (:So unnecessary. So, but thrift stores are full of skinny jeans now, is ... Here is what I'm telling you.
Leena Manro (:Oh, no.
Madeleine Shaw (:And so, what are we going to do about that? Because nobody's ever going to want to wear them again.
Leena Manro (:They're not.
Madeleine Shaw (:Nobody's going to buy them.
Leena Manro (:So what happens to them then?
Madeleine Shaw (:Well, they get packed onto containers and shipped off to different places in the global south.
Leena Manro (:And if they don't sell there, then they go into landfills, don't they?
Madeleine Shaw (:Correct.
Leena Manro (:And sometimes end up in the water and in beaches, in-
Madeleine Shaw (:Beaches or incinerated.
Leena Manro (:Oh no.
Madeleine Shaw (:And in the meantime, there are these ... Massive secondhand clothing markets disrupt local artisans working with local textiles, who are making things in those local economies. So it's kind of screwing with not just the environment; it's screwing with local economic development.
Leena Manro (:Okay. Well, let's break that down a bit. That's interesting. So you're saying when these secondhand markets come up in, maybe ... Because I think Nairobi has a really big secondhand market, right?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:I think we talked about that in one of our other episodes.
Madeleine Shaw (:You did. Yep. Great example.
Leena Manro (:Right? And I think ... I don't know if I've actually been there. I've been to Nairobi, but I don't know if I have a very clear mental image. I don't know if it's from the conversation or if I've actually been there, but you're saying that is an example of disrupting the local market for textiles because it's ...
Madeleine Shaw (:Sure.
Leena Manro (:Oh, yeah.
Madeleine Shaw (:If I'm someone who's making and weaving the local kitenge cloth, and I'm a designer, and I'm making traditional outfits, and someone ... And it's just the human thing. And then there's this cheap thing, whatever, that you can buy for less that has a GAP label in it or something that is somehow perceived to be interesting or valuable. And it's like, yeah. So it kind of undermines that. So this ... Fashion is a multi-headed monster that shows up in a lot of different places.
(:And so meanwhile, back in Kelowna, I go to this amazing secondhand store. They tell me about all the waste that's happening, and I see that they have this beautiful sewing room that one of their volunteers has set up. And I'm like, "Well, why don't we upcycle this stuff instead of throwing it away and teach people how to do it?" And so today, they offer a series of workshops that I helped create that upcycle the denim. And they've got their own label called ReUp, which is super cool. And they've got a little corner of the boutique now that is the upcycled things that they are making.
Leena Manro (:That's incredible!
Madeleine Shaw (:And I just ... Everything about it makes sense to me.
Leena Manro (:And what kinds of things are they making?
Madeleine Shaw (:They're making bags and place mats. They're making the coasters, like you've got there.
Leena Manro (:Yes. I want to share with you the coasters. Was this where that came from? Did they make them, or-
Madeleine Shaw (:No, I made those here.
Leena Manro (:You made these? As a gift to All Purpose, lovely Madeleine brought us some coasters, and those who are watching can see them. For those who are not, watch the show! No, for those who can't, those who are listening, they're just lovely, very unique pieces of denim that are sewn together as coasters, but they're very durable. And are these one piece, or are there several pieces?
Madeleine Shaw (:There's four in there. Yeah, it's a set of four. You can take it out. And so again, each one is one of a kind.
Leena Manro (:But is each one from one piece of cloth, or did you put together several pieces to make one?
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, I put together a whole ... You can see, each one is like a mosaic kind of thing.
Leena Manro (:Oh, yes. Each one is a mosaic.
Madeleine Shaw (:You can see-
Leena Manro (:I don't know if you can see this.
Madeleine Shaw (:... this was a belt loop, this little bit here, or rather, a fly. These are belt loops.
Leena Manro (:These are lovely. They're such beautiful textures.
Madeleine Shaw (:They're fun. And yeah, so they're the smallest little bits of denim. And so this goes back to what I was talking about with the whole animal approach, where it's like, I want to use ... Or the seams, the hems, because they're quite thick and tough, where, in trying to think about that, it's like, "Okay, how could that be helpful and useful?" It's like, "Well, if you're putting down a hot cup of coffee on a wooden table, then that's helpful." And so yeah, that started ... Anyways, there's a related product that are place mats and bags and ... Yeah, so you can make a lot of different things.
Leena Manro (:That's amazing.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. So you're not as fancy as what I'm wearing, but you can definitely do some really cool basic things, and at least it gets you in the groove, and you learn how. And then from there, you can just ...
Leena Manro (:Limited only by our imaginations. Isn't it?
Madeleine Shaw (:Correct.
Leena Manro (:Wow. Okay. One of the other things that you do, back in 2021, I believe, you published-
Madeleine Shaw (:I did.
Leena Manro (:... you published a book called The Greater Good by Madeleine Shaw. And this book is about social entrepreneurship. It says here, "Social entrepreneurship for everyday people who want to change the world." I'm not finished the book. I'm about a third of the way in, and I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it.
Madeleine Shaw (:Thank you, thank you.
Leena Manro (:I'm not just saying that.
Madeleine Shaw (:Thanks.
Leena Manro (:I was like, you know how when you read a book a friend has written? There's always a bit of a bias. But there's no ... Objectively, this is a very good book.
Madeleine Shaw (:Thank you.
Leena Manro (:And it spoke to my soul.
Madeleine Shaw (:Aw.
Leena Manro (:It spoke to my heart. It spoke to my soul. I mean, I don't think you're surprised by that. I think, when you're writing, you're probably ... You know you're speaking to like-minded ... The stories out there right?
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Leena Manro (:I didn't realize you were such a gifted storyteller. You're a very beautiful storyteller.
Madeleine Shaw (:Thank you.
Leena Manro (:So, I know that this book, people can get it online. They can download it via e-reader. I bought it. I found one, a copy on Amazon.
Madeleine Shaw (:Great. Amazing. Perfect. That's great.
Leena Manro (:And I did see there were a few.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:So, right?
Madeleine Shaw (:Good, good, good.
Leena Manro (:I highly recommend to anyone who is even just sort of toe-dipping on what social entrepreneurship is and building a business that melds profit and purpose together. But what I love is also just going deeper into things, like asking about, "What is your why?" And you're really helping people open up and expand. And you ask a lot of questions at the end of chapters, but let me just go into one of the things that you talk about.
(:Okay. So, Chapter Two actually is The Soul Traits of Social Entrepreneurs. So, tell me what your experience, your experiences have, what you've gathered are those soul traits of the social entrepreneurs. I mean, you list it out very, very well in the book, but I just want to talk to you a little bit about that.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. I mean, basically, the whole idea is that most ventures created by social entrepreneurs stem from a deeply personal experience. They weren't just sitting back going, "How can I make money in this economy?" And they often had just a ... It's their story, right? Something happened, and that gave them the idea, but that also gave them the resilience and the tenacity to really go for it. And sometimes those things are hard.
(:And so, there's a particular soulmate, or soul trait, I call the Lemonade Makers, I think-
Leena Manro (:Yes.
Madeleine Shaw (:... where a friend of mine, who I happened to be speaking to this morning, called Mary Letson, she went through a terrible bout with breast cancer a few years ago, and she fortunately survived but learned in the process that it was really the little things that made ... Like care that was provided for her that she was able to access that was external to just the standard medical system.
(:And so, she lives on an island off the coast here. And so she set up a charity with an annual swimming event to raise money for people on the island who are going through treatment for cancer, to provide those extra little acts of care and ease to help their healing and hopefully survival. And she's built that into this incredible event that gathers the community and raises tens of thousands of dollars and is really making a difference. But it all came from something really terrible that happened to her.
(:And I've seen ... Another person I talk about is Nadia Hamilton, who's a woman from Toronto and who grew up with her elder brother as a man with really pretty severe autism. And so she basically grew up being a caregiver to him and seeing as much as possible through his eyes, things like how the world was not as accessible as it could be for him. And so she literally would draw pictures for him to help him remember how to brush his teeth or how to get on the bus or how to just do really basic things to care for himself and navigate his life and navigate the world.
(:And then she was a computer science student and ended up making that into an incredible app called Magnusmode that now works with airports and transit systems-
Leena Manro (:Amazing.
Madeleine Shaw (:... to help folks on the spectrum navigate the world.
Leena Manro (:So beautiful.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. So those are the types of stories that are the most like where, when I say "soul," it's like literally embedded in someone's story and soul and who they ... It's an expression of who they are and their values.
Leena Manro (:So beautiful. I loved one ... Well, they're amazing. I've got a list of them here: the Creativity, the Lemonade Maker, the One Who ... I'm not wearing my reading glasses, so give me a second. The Ones Who ... Oh, about impact being the new black and hearing your calling. I think the one that I really liked, your story about gifts from the margins. That was interesting.
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, yeah.
Leena Manro (:Can you share what you mean about ... Well, tell us the story.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. Well, the story's a good one, and it does circle us back to Lunapads and ... Because Lunapads, and this was largely thanks to one of our team members, was one of the earliest menstrual care ventures to make products for non-binary and transgender menstruators.
Leena Manro (:So, just for context for our guests, because I think we've been talking about Lunapads and Aisle, very quickly, but can we just explain what Lunapads is?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. So Lunapads were a pioneering, groundbreaking brand of reusable cloth menstrual pads and period underwear. And I started making those products in the early '90s. And then I worked together with my business partner, Suzanne Siemens, from 2000 to 2023 to market those products globally, mostly online, but also in a bunch of other ways, but also concurrently worked very hard to develop a social movement that came to be known as menstrual equity.
(:And so, that looked like things like lobbying the government to provide menstrual products for free, along with quality education and shame-free attitudes around menstruation and stuff like that. So it was very much like, yes, it was a commercial venture, B Corp, founding B Corp, and a social movement that we were working on.
Leena Manro (:Beautiful.
Madeleine Shaw (:So a very classic social entrepreneur-type thing. It's like you're not ... Yes, we have a product, and we are marketing it, but we are doing that in order to further a conversation and to address a problem that was not previously addressed in a sustainable way.
Leena Manro (:Right.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. And thank you for that. And okay, so we're going back to-
Leena Manro (:So now, in your book, there's a lovely story-
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, yeah, yeah! Gifts from the Margins.
Leena Manro (:... about the gifts from the margins. I just chuckled. I thought it was a beautiful story and a wonderful example of, literally, the gifts in the margins that a lot of people might find as maybe challenges that come up in their business. Maybe they can look at these as, possibly, opportunities. So it's a beautiful example. Sorry, go ahead.
Madeleine Shaw (:No, no. Yeah, exactly. So, over time ... So when we started in the menstrual care space, everything was still pink. Our website was pink, I admit it, and then it did become purple, but it took a while. It was still traditionally a feminine, cisgendered, woman profile, girl was seen as the person who menstruated as a user, but that started to change around the early 2000s.
(:There were folks very understandably putting their hands up and saying, "Hey, I don't identify as a cisgender woman, but I have my period, and I need you all to make products to support my experience. And I want to be seen in this." And so we started listening, and we developed a boxer brief product that we launched in 20- ... I'm going to say 2014, but I'd have to look at the book.
(:And what was interesting, why ... The gift from the margin is you think you're doing this to sort of cater to a, quote, "fringe," a minority of people, right? But they're still a customer. They're still having their period. They need your respect and your help. And there's every argument in the world for doing it, from a moral perspective. So we started selling these products, and suddenly, like within six months, they were our number one selling product.
Leena Manro (:Unbelievable.
Madeleine Shaw (:I know.
Leena Manro (:Can you imagine? I mean, did you ever expect that?
Madeleine Shaw (:Never. And it's like, "Oh, this is a good idea for everybody."
Leena Manro (:"Everyone."
Madeleine Shaw (:But we never would have had that insight.
Leena Manro (:They're my favorite. I have the brief boxers.
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, yay. Yay, yay, yay.
Leena Manro (:I bought them. They're so comfortable. They're so wonderful.
Madeleine Shaw (:It's amazing. And yeah, so that is the gift from the margin, is that you think-
Leena Manro (:Amazing.
Madeleine Shaw (:... it's kind of just out there, and you think it's fringe and whatever, but actually ... And what I say, I believe, in the book is that you think it's sort of peripheral, but actually, it's ahead of you. It's coming to you. It's a voice from the future, going, "Innovation's this way, guys." And so, that's a really important perspective shift.
Leena Manro (:Ooh! It's a gift, it's like it's a voice from the future!
Madeleine Shaw (:That's right.
Leena Manro (:Oh, that's ... Yes. Wow, there's a lot there. That's the universe coming in and just sort of helping you sort of push or move your path. I can see why it was the number one seller, and it is so interesting how specificity sometimes will point the way to something universal. Universality, isn't it?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, sure. Yeah.
Leena Manro (:It happens in writing, often when you're writing a script or some sort of funny dialogue. You get really specific about it, but actually, as specific as you go, sometimes it touches on universal themes that everybody can relate to. You know?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:We're more alike than we realize.
Madeleine Shaw (:We are. But it's the truth telling of it. It's the putting your finger on it and saying, "This?" And then people are like, "Oh my God, I'm not the only one who thinks that," or "I'm not the only one who feels that." And then you're setting people free.
Leena Manro (:Setting people free. Is that something that's a core theme for you? Do you want to set people free?
Madeleine Shaw (:I do.
Leena Manro (:Yeah.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:And why is that?
Madeleine Shaw (:I just think we accept too many constraints around what even is reality or what is an acceptable way to be. That's part of what makes these times really exciting. To go back to the disruption of the gender binary idea, people believed that for so long and accepted that for so long, and it's like, "Why?" And just black-and-white thinking about anything is so misguided and limiting.
(:And I think, yeah, even that's what part of the pleasure of upcycling, for me, is. If you look at something, and you go, "Well, those are neckties. They must always be neckties." And it's like, no, they don't. "That's a tablecloth. It must always be ..." No, it doesn't. It can be something else. And it's this sense of possibility and transformation that, to me, is liberating, and it just creates this sense of possibility, of hope, because we need to apply that kind of creative thinking to solve things like the climate emergency.
Leena Manro (:Absolutely.
Madeleine Shaw (:And people, we need to think creatively-
Leena Manro (:We do.
Madeleine Shaw (:... and that's why we need so many diversity of experience and opinion and background and folks in on these conversations because if you think that the way you are seeing something is the truth, you are wrong, and it's not going to fix what we need to fix. We need to do those things together.
Leena Manro (:And how satisfying is it for you that you've been on this journey, a journey of purpose, creativity? Are you feeling you're answering your soul's calling?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. I mean, I feel blessed, and I ... Absolutely. And there's a huge amount of freedom to it, but also, I've worked really, really, really hard. But I always knew, even when I was a kid. I don't know, I just had this feeling, like a lot of anxiety, to be honest, around not fitting in, just feeling like I was somehow not conforming to things that were expected of me. And for whatever reasons, even when I was really young ... Like, I got kicked out of Brownies, things like that.
Leena Manro (:Oh, man.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:You have to be quite a rebel to be kicked out of Brownies.
Madeleine Shaw (:I know. It's like, how bad do you have to be when you're like nine, getting kicked out of Brownies? But it happened, and I just hated it, and I hated the uniform, and I hated the rules, and I hated, like ... And I was just responding in this very visceral way to something that I felt was oppressive to me.
(:And that has persisted through my whole life, but my answer to it is creativity and leadership and just trying new things. Like, just keep going. And I don't know, it's just always ... Yeah, leadership has definitely always been a calling for me. Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Wow. Yeah. I think we may have covered this a little bit, but how would you define success? And by the way, to preface this, Madeleine is very successful. She's very successful. She's killed it.
Madeleine Shaw (:I don't know.
Leena Manro (:So how would you define it?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. Well, I feel like I have succeeded to the extent that I've expressed my gifts well. They may not have always been met with commercial success, which is how most people look at business and success. That's the, sort of, number one metric, right?
Leena Manro (:Right.
Madeleine Shaw (:Even in the social impact space, they still want to know what your sales are and et cetera. And that's fine because it's a way of looking at that. But knowing that, especially Suzanne and I, we, I think, inspired a lot of other people to become entrepreneurs in the social impact space as women, and also because we had such different backgrounds. She was trained as a traditional accountant. Business, metrics, top line, la-la-la, and shareholder growth, whatever stuff, and deviated from that, right? She had a huge career going before she met me but was very unhappy because it wasn't in line with her values.
Leena Manro (:It wasn't feeding her-
Madeleine Shaw (:Right?
Leena Manro (:Yeah, I was going to say it wasn't feeding her soul as well, probably. Right?
Madeleine Shaw (:Correct.
Leena Manro (:I mean, both.
Madeleine Shaw (:You are so right. And then you had me on the other side, who was this kind of kooky artist, social change person, trying to sell people products that people thought were weird and gross and whatever, but that meant a lot to me, but had no traditional business training at all. And so we came together and made it into something.
Leena Manro (:It was actually, when I look back on it ... I love Suzanne. She's so lovely as well. You two are just such a wonderful pairing. It seems like you really hit a beautiful place of complimentary skills to make your business so successful, and it became that.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. No, we worked really, really, really beautifully together, and I know I miss her. I miss her, but we're really good friends, and we talk a lot, and that's all good. But yeah, relationships are everything.
(:And I think, when we're thinking about starting a business, people think about the product or the marketing plan or the production plan or the operations, whatever. Yes, think about all those things. It's really important, but there is nothing more important than the quality of the relationships that you're able to cultivate with people.
Leena Manro (:I agree with that. Absolutely.
Madeleine Shaw (:And the story that you ... Because it's the story that will create ... It's your energy that creates ... Like, you and I can feel it right now, right?
Leena Manro (:That's true.
Madeleine Shaw (:And we're doing it. And it's why we're here in this room and in this moment, and people can feel that. They can feel that authenticity, and they can feel that sense of an emotional connection to what you're doing because you are sharing, you're putting it out there, you're being vulnerable, right? You're saying, just, "I grew up with my brother who ... Severely autistic," or "I went through this thing," or "Na-na-na," and that you're sharing part of yourself, and that's what people are drawn to connect with. And that's what motivates them to help you or connect with you or whatever that is or just repeat your story to someone else.
(:Even someone ... My cousin wrote to me last night, and she was wearing one of the skirts I made, and she said, "I went to this meeting, and everybody in the room was like, 'Where did you get that skirt?' And then I told them the story about how it's upcycled denim and how you made it, and everybody was like, 'Oh my God,' and 'That's so interesting and beautiful.'" And it touches people.
(:And then they got into this huge conversation about sustainability that has nothing to do with me but has everything to do-
Leena Manro (:But look at what you sparked, though.
Madeleine Shaw (:It sparked it, right?
Leena Manro (:The ripples that are being created by doing the work that we do, and we don't ... It's almost like we have a responsibility to really explore that and do that because it's not really just about us. I mean, it is about those ripples, and you never know who you're going to affect.
Madeleine Shaw (:You never do. And actually, that circles back to one of the first things you observed in the beginning of, like, "Oh, you do all these different things." The last thing I would want people to know that I do or how I identify is that I'm a gardener. And so, one of the things-
Leena Manro (:Ha, yeah, I know this.
Madeleine Shaw (:... that you just said about these seeds, like the metaphor of seeds. We are sowing seeds and spreading ideas and parts of ourselves into a garden, let's say the garden of life. Whatever our experience is, that when you do that generously, and you let the earth and other people ... Like, you're not sitting there, obsessing over one seed, or you're not ...
(:There's an organic quality, I think, to what I do, and it doesn't need to be big, and it doesn't need to be ... I don't know. I kind of reject any of that, and I'm just trusting that I'm in the flow of life, basically. I'm doing what the universe needs me to do, and I'm-
Leena Manro (:What you came here to do.
Madeleine Shaw (:Sure.
Leena Manro (:Yeah. No, absolutely. One of the things that I would love to talk about, you've been vocal about this, and it's a really important topic. And so before I let you go, I actually would love to talk about this, and it has to do ... And you've written articles on Medium about this. It has to do with giving up alcohol and how your life has transformed. Or has it? I don't know.
Madeleine Shaw (:It has!
Leena Manro (:How has it affected you? It has? Yeah, let's talk about that journey.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, totally. Yeah. So we're doing this interview in January of 2026. I've been completely sober from alcohol since April of 2021. So I'm quite proud of the fact that I got sober and wrote a book during COVID. Can you believe it?
Leena Manro (:Wow, that's amazing.
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh my God.
Leena Manro (:That might've been why. Because if you get completely sober, it's just such a incredible path to such high creativity. I've experienced that. I mean, I got completely sober and wrote a lovely script.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I resonate with that. And it's funny, people think of it as deprivation, but for me it was liberation from something that was becoming unhealthy. I think what I would want to say, because there might be lots of people who are doing Dry January right now and kind of asking questions about alcohol and stuff-
Leena Manro (:Oh yeah, definitely.
Madeleine Shaw (:... and just so people are clear, I was a habitual drinker. I'd come home, have a couple glasses of wine kind of thing, and it just became every night, and then it became a tiny bit more. And then I just started waking up in the middle of the night and menopause and all these things, and I just realized it wasn't serving me.
(:And it wasn't even so much like, "Oh, I'm becoming an alcoholic." To me, that term isn't necessarily that useful. It's so pejorative, and it's whatever, but I just knew that this thing wasn't serving me. And I went on a huge journey of trying to unpack what was going on, why I was doing it, what alcohol even was, because I didn't really know, it was just wine, and how it works in the body, and how it's psychoactive, and all these different things. And yeah, but it took me about five years to really let it go.
(:And it was such an amazing learning journey. And now, living sober in the world is the most exciting thing to me. I just feel like the world is just kind of more technicolor.
Leena Manro (:That's interesting. Wow.
Madeleine Shaw (:I'm better rested, especially as someone now, I just turned 58 a couple weeks ago and-
Leena Manro (:What?
Madeleine Shaw (:I know.
Leena Manro (:Okay. I do not know that. You don't look 58.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, no. Well, that's another thing. It's like-
Leena Manro (:Congrats.
Madeleine Shaw (:... I'm so not into being ashamed of anything. It's like, I'm happy to tell people I used to have a drinking problem because, whatever, I don't care. It's just part of my life. I've written volumes about it.
Leena Manro (:It's interesting because the way you describe it actually does not sound ... It sounds very relatable. I think a lot of people ... I know there was a period in my life, not now, but there was a time where I found ... And I think COVID, a lot of people really found that during COVID, where you would just have a bottle of wine in the evening.
(:And I remember thinking, "I know I don't have a problem because I'm not waking up in the morning and drinking," but every evening, yes, I craved a glass or two of red wine. And I think a lot of people do, and they don't see anything wrong with it. But the moment you take that out, and you really work with that out of your life, the difference is truly like night and day.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:It's truly like night and day.
Madeleine Shaw (:I agree. And I think, also, I mean, I can only speak to my own personal experience, which is cisgendered woman, white, Western living, whatever, at the age that I was. But for me, it was like the number one most helpful thing that I did to help me get through menopause was getting alcohol out of my life.
Leena Manro (:Completely. Really? Oh.
Madeleine Shaw (:Because it was messing with my sleep, and your sleep is already being messed with because of all the hormonal changes and hot flashes and all those things. And so it enabled me to get rest. And now what we're learning about sleep and brain health is stunning. So I think we've really collectively underestimated the value of sleep to our overall health.
(:And for me, it just occurred at a very, very transitional time in my life where it's like, I literally couldn't take it anymore. I was like, "I just can't keep doing this." But I realized that it was kind of degrading my overall quality of life by about 10 to 20% every day. I wasn't as awake as I could be, or I was a bit more irritable than I needed to be, or I would just have a bit more of a negative slant on things, I think.
Leena Manro (:Interesting.
Madeleine Shaw (:And it's because of this persistent, low-grade hangover that I was carrying because you are drinking ... Well, not a huge quantity. People get obsessed about quantity, and it's like, "Okay, sure. If you're drinking a huge bottle of vodka every day, obviously there's a problem."
Leena Manro (:Of course.
Madeleine Shaw (:But if somebody's like, "Oh, I just have a couple glasses of wine." It's like, depending on the age that you are and your gender and other mental health stuff you may have going on, other genetic stuff you may have going on, that can actually really be quite harmful.
Leena Manro (:And I think it accumulates. I think a lot of people ... I don't know, same. I can only really talk from my experience and talking with other family and friends, but it does seem that there's a cumulative effect. So having one glass of wine, I find, for me, once a week is very different than one glass every night, even if it's just a small glass.
(:But they've also changed the Canada health guidelines around alcohol-
Madeleine Shaw (:Yes, they have.
Leena Manro (:... specifically, for men and women.
Madeleine Shaw (:They have.
Leena Manro (:And it's just, I think right now the recommended safe ... I mean, there's no real "safe dose," but what is it? It's something like-
Madeleine Shaw (:So, the low-risk drinking guideline in Canada is no more than two drinks per week.
Leena Manro (:Per week.
Madeleine Shaw (:Regardless of gender.
Leena Manro (:Yeah. Oh, is it regardless of gender?
Madeleine Shaw (:It is regardless.
Leena Manro (:Oh.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. So it's not called "safe." It is called "low risk."
Leena Manro (:Low risk. Right.
Madeleine Shaw (:And that's a really important distinction. Because they have found, the World Health Organization and large cancer organizations globally, have come to the conclusion that there literally is no safe-
Leena Manro (:There's no safe ...
Madeleine Shaw (:... amount to consume.
Leena Manro (:So the lower risk is two five-ounce, say, glasses of wine.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. Per week.
Leena Manro (:And I don't know what it is for the other drinks. It would be the equivalent. But remember when it was one drink per day for women?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Oh my goodness. Okay. I abided, for the most part, with those guidelines. I thought I was doing my body a favor. I thought red wine's good for you. It's like-
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, you relax.
Leena Manro (:... there's all these stories that we hear and that we want to believe. But yeah, I mean, so I haven't gone completely free from alcohol, but I do like to adhere to that or less. And I found even that to be a huge game changer.
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, for sure.
Leena Manro (:Just being so much more alert. And like you said, that low-grade hangover feeling that ... It's like a brain fog.
Madeleine Shaw (:Totally.
Leena Manro (:And then you need the coffee to counter that.
Madeleine Shaw (:Exactly. Yeah. And then you're on that hamster wheel. And also, for your body to process even one drink is a huge toxic load. It literally is poison. Alcohol, ethanol is a level one carcinogen, right? So when you drink a glass of wine or whatever, your body's like, "Oh my God, there's poison in the body." Your liver stops processing whatever other forms of toxin it's processing, because it's like, "Do-do-do! Got to get on it," with this alcohol that is then converted to an even more toxic substance. And it takes about 10 days for your body to fully process alcohol-
Leena Manro (:One drink?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yep. Out of its system.
Leena Manro (:Oh, wow.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Okay.
Madeleine Shaw (:I know. I'm sorry.
Leena Manro (:Oh no!
Madeleine Shaw (:Not to be a bummer, guys.
Leena Manro (:Yeah, there goes my glass of wine tonight.
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, shoot.
Leena Manro (:No. No, that's good. No, it's good to know! These are things a lot of people, they either they don't know, they don't really want to talk about because it's so socially accepted to drink. It's accepted, and it's expected.
Madeleine Shaw (:It is.
Leena Manro (:That part's-
Madeleine Shaw (:It's how we celebrate.
Leena Manro (:It's how we celebrate.
Madeleine Shaw (:It's romance. It's all those things.
Leena Manro (:Aw. It's all the things.
Madeleine Shaw (:And I guess I sort of ... When I say people say, "Do you miss it?" Because I used to really love drinking wine obviously, and it's this whole thing, and ... I don't miss how it made me feel. At the end of the day, I really don't. And I've had some ... Yeah, it was not an easy process, but it was like, in the end, oh my God, I wish I'd quit when I was so much younger. Ugh, holy moly. I can't even imagine how much more vitality and energy and creativity I would have been able to tap into, and ... Even with just feeling slightly depleted over several years. So anyways, thank you for asking.
Leena Manro (:Oh, well, thank you for sharing that. I mean, for me, the awakening about these substances came in a plant medicine ceremony, and that's where a lot of these downloads, I think people use the term "downloads," came.
(:The other one for me personally was to just ... Like, coffee didn't work well in my system. And I found that to be really, really amazing too, to kind of-
Madeleine Shaw (:Nice.
Leena Manro (:... eliminate that. But harder. I felt like alcohol was a little easier-
Madeleine Shaw (:Okay.
Leena Manro (:... but coffee, for some reason ... I mean, it's so addictive, and it's just-
Madeleine Shaw (:How I start my day every day.
Leena Manro (:I know.
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah. So maybe that's-
Leena Manro (:And it tastes so good.
Madeleine Shaw (:... the next ...
Leena Manro (:Are you going to cut that out too, coffee? But you don't drink much. You drink like a cup a day or something, right?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, I do. But it's like, you could say the same thing with people having their drink a day or whatever.
Leena Manro (:Their alcohol. Drinking, yeah.
Madeleine Shaw (:I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Right now, I'm not feeling like doing anything ... I'm fine. And I honestly, I feel good about my choices and my wellbeing and my health and that kind of "should" voice.
Leena Manro (:Absolutely.
Madeleine Shaw (:I just can't ... Even if it's a supportive thing that's like, "Oh, you should floss your teeth more often," or something. It's like, that's probably true. It's like, okay, I'll take it. There's something about a balance between giving myself a hard time and doing things that are genuinely nourishing.
Leena Manro (:Totally, totally, totally.
Madeleine Shaw (:So it's finding the right voice and the right time and the right message, like going, "Hey, how about caffeine?" And I'm like, "Hey, how about caffeine? How about that?"
Leena Manro (:And listening and tuning in to yourself as well. Really tuning in to what you need, which could be very different from what another person needs-
Madeleine Shaw (:Exactly.
Leena Manro (:... at that time in their life and on their journey.
Madeleine Shaw (:Exactly. Exactly.
Leena Manro (:Well, that's really beautiful.
(:Any final words or thoughts that you'd like to share?
Madeleine Shaw (:I just like to say to people, do what you can with what you've got where you are when it comes to social change or trying to make the world a better place or whatever, because it can just be so overwhelming. And so this very practical, just, "What do you got? What do you got where you are right now?" And sort of pull focus into your own life in that way. And like, "How are you taking care of yourself? How are you taking care of your friendships? How are you taking care of your neighbors? How are you taking care of your local environment?"
Leena Manro (:That's beautiful.
Madeleine Shaw (:And just start there. That's amazing. Yeah.
Leena Manro (:Well, there was something else that I remember reading that really, really resonated with me, and it was this idea of the reluctant entrepreneur. The reluctant leader. And there are many of us, I think, who are in that space. At least I was. A lot of this was just like, "This is something I like, I want to do." And maybe that's something for people to consider, that it's not all about just like ... It's not really necessary to be that person who always wanted to be an entrepreneur or a leader. And in fact, it could be those who are reluctant.
Madeleine Shaw (:I agree. And that is something I touch on in the book as well. And because so many of these people started somewhere else, they didn't go to business school. And again, it was driven by this kind of soul trait, this calling, their story that we touched on earlier.
(:And this also goes back to this sort of a personal alchemical sort of thing. It's like, you too can change. You can learn. You can become a different person. And there are things that you know and that you're good at that will have very, very real application to whatever you put yourself into, but certainly for entrepreneurship.
(:And that's why I subtitled the book For Everyday People Who Want to Change the World, because to make people go, "Oh, okay. I'm an everyday person. I'm an everyday ... I'm not an entrepreneur." It's like, "I will learn to do this, and I'm going to be inspired by these other everyday people with their gifts from the margins who have done incredible things to make the world a better place."
Leena Manro (:Oh, well, thank you so much for sharing your gifts and doing all these incredible things that really are making our world better. You're just such an inspiration. You're such a wonderful person, such a wonderful human. Madeleine, thank you so much for joining us today on Up to So Good.
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, Leena, thank you. It's my absolute pleasure to be here with you today. And yeah, just love to hear from anybody listening.
Leena Manro (:Yes. Actually, can people reach out to you?
Madeleine Shaw (:Yeah, sure.
Leena Manro (:So how do they reach out to you?
Madeleine Shaw (:The only social media I use with any great regularity is LinkedIn, but I'm very responsive. Or they can just email me, m@greatergood.org. And I have a website, madeleineshaw.ca and everywaredesigns.ca.
Leena Manro (:Beautiful. And we'll post all the links. People can look at that as they look for the podcast, all of the links. And again, I'd recommend anyone who is interested in these topics to get in touch with Madeleine. She's a very lovely human.
Madeleine Shaw (:Oh, thanks, friend. You too.
Leena Manro (:Thank you.
(:Well, that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button, or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions or comments, or show ideas, you can email us directly at hello@allpurpose.io.
(:Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time.
