Aquatic Allies: Inclusion & Ocean Advocacy at the Vancouver Aquarium

Leena Manro (: 00:00

Welcome to Up To So Good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose-driven business so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation.

(: 00:13

Hello, and welcome to Up To So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host, Leena Manro, and welcome to the first episode of season two. That's right, this is season two. That means we have a whole first season for you to download and enjoy on Spotify or anywhere actually that you want to listen to a podcast because we're everywhere, or you can just watch them on YouTube.

(: 00:34

We're going to start this season with an episode interviewing a representative of a company that's a little different from some of the other corporate environments that we've entertained. We're going to be talking to Linda Lavergne. She's the manager of community outreach for the Vancouver Aquarium.

(: 00:49

Now, if you're not from Vancouver, that's okay. This episode is still for you. If you're an animal lover, this episode is definitely for you, and there are some who might feel that aquariums and zoos, et cetera, are very controversial. The Vancouver Aquarium, however, is in a league of its own. It's completely different from other types of aquariums in that they are a leader in impact, and specifically, they have a number of programs for people who are neurodivergent. They are leaders with respect to accessibility and they won awards, and they also genuinely care about and help and rescue animals. They work in partnership with the Marine Mammal Rescue Society, rescuing and rehabilitating marine animals. That's amazing, animals that are in distress and that have been hurt by a lot of human activity, so definitely stick around to watch this episode, which is not just about the Vancouver Aquarium, but a lot of important issues surrounding that and how we take care of our animals and our oceans. Take care. Hope you enjoy the episode.

(: 01:48

Hello and welcome to Up To So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host, Leena Munro, and today, we have a very special guest from the Vancouver Aquarium, Linda Lavergne.

Linda Lavergne (: 01:59

Perfect.

Leena Manro (: 02:00

And she is the manager of community outreach. Thank you so much for joining us on today's show. Welcome to Up To So Good.

Linda Lavergne (: 02:07

Thank you for inviting us. I'm really happy to be here and talk about what we do the best at the Vancouver Aquarium.

Leena Manro (: 02:13

The Vancouver Aquarium, one of the most beautiful, positive, lovely places where things are definitely up to so good, and we do chat with a lot of business founders and owners and representatives from companies where the purpose of the business is something more than earning profits, and so let's start there. Because a lot of our viewers are actually not from Vancouver, but this is an episode that we want to unearth material that people, even if they're listening from Spain, they will relate to, and so why don't you just talk a little bit about what the Vancouver Aquarium actually is first?

Linda Lavergne (: 02:52

Well, the Vancouver Aquarium is an iconic aquarium in Canada. It's the oldest aquarium, it's 68 years old, was born in 1956. So the Vancouver Aquarium has multi-generational guests. We have now grandparents that are coming with their grandkids that used to come as a parent, and also the parents that are now coming as well with their kids that are saying, "We used to be here as a child." Now we are also recruiting employees that used to visit the aquarium in their school group, and they're at the age. As a matter of fact, some of our employees were the poster child at the Vancouver Aquarium in the early eighties. So again, although we're in Vancouver, our base is really large because of our online programming as well as we have members that are living in Australia and members that are living in England, and they will come for their yearly visit to Canada and to Vancouver specifically, and they will come and visit the aquarium.

Leena Manro (: 04:00

Yes, it is considered one of the top attractions here in beautiful Vancouver, beautiful British Columbia. But what's also unique and unusual actually about the Vancouver Aquarium is the kind of community outreach that you all do, and the fact that you've actually won awards with respect to accessibility and inclusivity, and that's very unusual. You don't see a lot of art galleries or aquariums, et cetera, doing that kind of work, so let's talk a little bit about that. What kind of outreach does Vancouver Aquarium do?

Linda Lavergne (: 04:30

Well, last year, we were honored by the BC Tourism in granting us the award for the best inclusive and accessible guest experience. And I'm glad to say and really happy and proud to say that we're also finalists this year, so we'll find out on March 6th if we have been granted with that honor again. The outreach program is something that since we reopened in 2021 has morphed into what can we do for the community that supported the aquarium when it was not open during COVID? And our community has been so great, from a rescued animal like Joey, a rescued sea otter that everybody is probably following on the YouTube channels or maybe also on Instagram, but Joey saved the aquarium in 2020, and just by buying masks at that time, and then it became that what can we do as well to return to the community?

(: 05:31

And so since we reopened and once we had our foot down path in the solid ground, we started talking about how can we host sensory friendly mornings? Because the statistics are that probably on a 4,000 people day, I probably will have 800 neurodivergent guests that would walk through the aquarium.

Leena Manro (: 05:51

Neurodivergent guest?

Linda Lavergne (: 05:54

Neurodivergent guest.

Leena Manro (: 05:54

Wow, okay.

Linda Lavergne (: 05:55

And so how can we them and provide an experience that is equally as good to somebody like you and me perhaps, walking in and we're very familiar with the aquarium? And so I started working with Canucks Autism Network and asking them for advice on how can I organize a sensory-friendly hours and what do we need? And then-

Leena Manro (: 06:21

And let me just repeat that. So it's sensory-friendly hours that you organize?

Linda Lavergne (: 06:25

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 06:25

Okay.

Linda Lavergne (: 06:27

So basically, it's once a month. We have three and a half hours that we provide, from 9:30 till noon, that we provide low sensory stimulation to our guests. So our screens are turned off, our music is turned off.

Leena Manro (: 06:46

I see.

Linda Lavergne (: 06:47

Our radios especially that we forget, the radios is the two-way communications between our crew members, and then so that is turned down on low. And then we just also make an announcement as well that it is sensory-friendly hours, and just as a reminder for guests coming in, we have signage that explains that. And one of the things that is remarkable that I found out during my first sensory-friendly hours is that the impact of the mechanical hand dryers in the washroom and how loud they can be.

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And one of the comments the day after we held her first sensory-friendly hours, a mom was visiting with her husband without the kids. The kids were with the grandparents. It was a day event in Vancouver, and they decided to visit the aquarium, and the first thing when she entered was she saw the sign and specifically that we had purposely turned off the mechanical hand dryers, and throughout the aquarium. And she said that she started crying when she read that because she never understood why her children demonstrated anxiety every time they went to a public washroom until they were diagnosed, and then they were aware that these loud sounds that are stimulating the wrong part of the brain or a different part that agitated them.

Leena Manro (: 08:14

Wow. And so has word spread about the fact that something like this exists, for example, what was it called? The sensory, the low sensory,

Linda Lavergne (: 08:24

The low sensory days?

Leena Manro (: 08:26

Yes, the low sensory days. Has word spread, and what has the reception been like? Do you find that you are just filled with guests during that time?

Linda Lavergne (: 08:35

We do. What we've done is we reduced our online booking, so that's reduced by 50% so that we reduce capacity. So this is also a financial commitment that we made, that for those three and a half hours, the limit is what you have online. You could still come if you decide to drive and walk in to buy a ticket. You can because we won't turn anyone back that has just paid for their parking and drove an hour to get to the aquarium. So we are spreading. I work also with basically CAN, which is Canucks Autism Network, and I also work with Pacific Autism Family Network, and there's two wonderful organization in BC, in Vancouver, they're based in Vancouver. And what I've done is with them is that they advertise and announce our sensory-friendly dates through their members. And I also invite every month three families from each organization to attend an experience, because otherwise, they may not be able to, but there's a commitment there that we do that every month. And so the word is spreading as well, and winning the award also last year has helped us to spread the word.

Leena Manro (: 09:47

That's really beautiful. Yeah, I wasn't sure when I read about the award and accessibility specifically what we were talking about, because when you think about accessibility, there are the obvious types of accessibility challenges, i.e. ensuring that there are ramps and accessible bathrooms, etc. But it sounds like with Vancouver Aquarium, you guys have gone above and beyond that. What are some other... Yeah, can you share with us some other accessibility-

Linda Lavergne (: 10:13

The wonderful thing that we've done as well when we talk about accessibility, which means having our guests coming in and feeling comfortable at the Aquarium, but also when we talk about inclusion as well is that how can we support our teams as well to deliver the service we want to neurodivergent guests. A lot of it has to do with communication really, because of what we've done two years in a row. We had our volunteers and also our associates train in how to provide meaningful experiences to neurodivergent guests. And so that would be through AID Canada, which is a wonderful resource as well. And there was a lot of role playing, and then we had some actors that came in and demonstrated what a meltdown could be so that how we can react and also protect them during that time.

(: 11:04

So that was quite revealing to the employees because we always read about a meltdown, but we don't know maybe the amount of time it will take for somebody to calm down or to be removed from the situation and to be protected, so that was a learning moment for all of us. And we found out also that children on the autism spectrum are attracted to water, so the best place to be is the Vancouver Aquarium, so that was another thing. But also, I work with these organizations.

Leena Manro (: 11:38

Well, say that again. They're attracted to water?

Linda Lavergne (: 11:41

They're attracted to water, so for some reason, and what I was told is that it provides them with a soothing feeling, just the water. So they could be close to water as well, but also see the water through the glass. So they could be going near the fountain. So if we have a lost child, which happens once in a while at the aquarium because everybody has an interest in watching something and then somebody would move away, we will go towards the fountains as well. We would look at the fountains to make sure that there's not a child standing by themselves or mingling with other children, but also we'll go to some specific habitats and exhibits where I know a child could be sitting there and just watching the fish go by.

Leena Manro (: 12:27

Very sweet.

Linda Lavergne (: 12:27

That happens more frequently, towards the shark exhibit especially. They will go where maybe the octopus might be, so they will go towards these exhibits, and that's where we would find the child. But the other thing that I'm really proud of is that the programs like Pacific Autism Family Network and Canucks Autism Network, they have training programs for students that are neurodiverse and are looking for meaningful employment. So every two months, I host an open house for Canucks Autism where I have at least eight students that will come in, and I talk about what the Vancouver offers as an employer and what we're looking for and some of the positions available. And I'm really, really proud because there's always one student that would like to work at the Aquarium, and sometimes they express that they've been wanting to work at the Aquarium since they were little. And as we're talking about people in early twenties or late teens, and probably the Aquarium has recruited at least 12 students from these programs, and I believe we may have six of these students that are permanently employed at the Vancouver Aquarium.

Leena Manro (: 13:39

Oh, beautiful.

Linda Lavergne (: 13:40

And also in guest facing as well position, not just behind the scene. One of them is working with animal care at the fish house, so when we see the trainers feeding the animals with TJ, he's the one that prepares the food, all the fish for them. And then we have also people working at the cafe, the gift shop, as well as guest experience.

Leena Manro (: 14:06

Here at Up To So Good, we like to talk about the purpose of a business, the purpose of an enterprise. So what would you say is the prime purpose of the Vancouver Aquarium?

Linda Lavergne (: 14:16

I would say looking at the Vancouver Aquarium, I think the main focus has been conservation, and also showing basically what we offer, what we do. What you see here is everything that you see is below the water level. So a lot of people, they're locked in land. They don't see the ocean. They may see a lake. And so just to be able to return to the Vancouver Aquarium and know that this exists and how do we take care of it. That is by our teaching, by our program, by our rehabilitation of our animals that have been rescued. It's just this is what we do, this is our purpose, and everyone that has worked at the Vancouver Aquarium has changed part of their life by just being at the aquarium. From years ago, from not using plastic or reducing their plastic or reducing their consumption of disposable single use items, finding out more about these animals and how they could be more sustainable, what could we do to protect them? So a lot, we become basically ocean warriors by osmosis.

Leena Manro (: 15:34

Yes. Okay, wow. Well, actually, I don't have too many more questions, but share with us a few of the things then in terms of in that spirit of conservation and protecting our oceans and protecting our animals, what are some things that, A, the Vancouver Aquarium teachers, and just, B, that you want the public to know?

Linda Lavergne (: 15:55

Well, all of our program have an educational part to it as well. You may see animal trainers I would call, or marine mammal trainers, but they're biologists. And so what they do is that every time they offer a program, they're also looking for the health of the animal as well. So they'll be looking to probably their fins, their mouth, their eyes, their ears, just to make sure that they're healthy and on a daily basis, and that they're well-fed as well. Every animal that we have there, basically their food is weighted and it's not the same animal that would have the same food. So they have special diets, so they make sure that they eat their food allocation of the day.

(: 16:46

And then if we talk about the sea otters, one of the most iconic animal that we have at the Vancouver Aquarium, all of our sea otters have been rescued. They've been abandoned for some reason or another by probably their mom or they've been separated from their mom, or they'd been probably injured and left abandoned. And then we educate people about how basically this animal was almost extinct, also because of the fur trade of a long, long time ago, because their fur is so important as well. Their fur is the densest fur that you would have on any of the animals.

(: 17:24

And so again, we could talk about a sea star as well. We could talk about our frogs and the conservation of our frogs, or even our jellyfish that we talked, because we propagate them at the aquarium as well. So we grow them at the aquarium.

Leena Manro (: 17:42

The jellyfish?

Linda Lavergne (: 17:43

The jellyfish. And so there's a lot of options that we have, like every program, when you meet a volunteer, when you meet an interpreter, when you meet a biologist in the galleries, and even when you're at the guest services, you're able to ask questions. We also have scavenger hunt as well, so that kids could play. And then also we have school programs as well, and camps. We have a lot of camps in the summer, spring break, where children come and they're becoming junior biologists.

Leena Manro (: 18:17

Now, some people have criticized both zoos and aquariums for holding onto animals for the purposes of display. In my research, I do feel that Vancouver Aquarium is very unique and very special in their approach, but what do you say to the critics of aquariums in general?

Linda Lavergne (: 18:37

Well, animals in human care, I find really, it plays an important role. If you don't see it, most people won't care for it, so if you go into the aquarium and you look at the care that they're given, and these probably animals would be left to be abandoned or died, that we're giving them also a second chance, but also we're learning from them. I find that we're very privileged in Canada to be living in a country where we could have opposite opinions about something and still agree. I've been at the aquarium long enough that people have expressed their views about having animals in human care, and then having also a very valid conversation about the care we give and are able also to make them understand what we do is great work and a lot of caring.

(: 19:32

So I respect their opinion. I may not agree with it because I've been at the aquarium now for almost 10 years and I love it, and I have to say that in all the work that I've done in this later part of my career, this probably might be one of the last jobs I will have because I want to be there and I don't want to go anywhere else.

(: 19:51

So again, I respect other people's opinions, but I believe that there is a tremendous merit to have animals and human care, sheltered, fed, and that we're still learning their behaviors, we're still learning and protecting our ocean at the same time. Because again, if you don't see it, people won't care for it, and a lot of people don't know what... When we go through the Treasures of BC's exhibit, and I explain to the guests, this is what we have under the water right here outside the Stanley Park, this is what lives under Stanley Park, and people are blown away.

Leena Manro (: 20:33

Where do most of the animals come from?

Linda Lavergne (: 20:35

Larger animals or marine mammals, most of them, I have to think. They're all rescued animals, so they're all from the BC area. Some animals have made it to the BC coast but they're not indigenous to the BC coast, like I would say Senor Cinco, he's a California sea lions, so they don't come up north as much.

Leena Manro (: 20:56

California sea lions?

Linda Lavergne (: 20:57

California sea lions. They're very different than the Steller sea lion. You could see by their forehead, and also one roars and one barks in their vocalization. But Senor Cinco was found on the beach at Jericho Beach on May 5th, so that's why he was named-

Leena Manro (: 21:16

He was washed up.

Linda Lavergne (: 21:17

As a matter of fact, he was shot. Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 21:21

He was shot?

Linda Lavergne (: 21:22

He was shot, yes. I think he was shot three times. There are still some x-rays that you could see at the exhibit where he was.

Leena Manro (: 21:30

Oh my goodness.

Linda Lavergne (: 21:32

And then he made it to the beach, and people thought it was a log at first because he's quite large and brown, and it looks like the logs that you would have at Jericho Beach, but then started to move. And so again, thank goodness the wonderful Marine Mammal Rescue Center, they went right away and they go also with fisheries and Oceans, because we cannot remove an animal until we get the permission to remove an animal to take care of it. And he was transported to the Marine Mammal Rescue Center and looked by our vets, and basically nurtured to health, but he's blind now.

Leena Manro (: 22:08

Oh, no.

Linda Lavergne (: 22:09

Yeah, so however, he's doing pretty well and he's getting along with the other animals. I think he's been there with I think the harbor seal. No, the fur seal I think right now.

Leena Manro (: 22:22

Wow. Amazing.

Linda Lavergne (: 22:23

Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 22:24

So let's talk about the Marine Mammal Rescue Society. They're doing a lot of work in rescuing mammals in this space, and specifically, there's a process where they disentangle duct tape from is it sea lions?

Linda Lavergne (: 22:42

Packing tape.

Leena Manro (: 22:43

Oh, my.

Linda Lavergne (: 22:44

So what you would have, let's say what you pack like a large amount of newspapers.

Leena Manro (: 22:49

Yes.

Linda Lavergne (: 22:50

So all that plastic. So yeah, so unfortunately those get into the ocean and they're not broken apart, so they're still in the form of a circle or a large ring. And so they would get into the animal's neck and then the animal would grow into it, which it would suffocate them eventually and drown them.

Leena Manro (: 23:14

There's so much that the mammal... Is it Mammal Rescue Society?

Linda Lavergne (: 23:19

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 23:20

They actually make regular trips to disentangle the animals?

Linda Lavergne (: 23:25

Absolutely. The team in conjunction with the Department of Fisheries and Ocean, they will sometimes fly out to somewhere up north of the sea coast or take a boat for hours to get there, and especially if... They normally know where to go for sure, because it's been reported, and it's at the point where the animal is probably at the end of their life because all the skin and the fat has gone, so there's creases in their neck. If you want to, there's a wonderful short film at the Vancouver Aquarium, at the Marine Mammal Rescue Exhibit, and also on YouTube, you could see that as well. It's well documented.

(: 24:07

And then how that happens is that we have a vet that is really specialized. Dr. Marty specializes in trying to basically put the animal to sleep for a few minutes without drowning the animal, so it's an art. So they would throw a dart, and then they would basically tranquilize the animal, and the animal could go down, but they try to get to the animal before the animal gets into the water, because again, we talk about these animals that are probably close to over 900 pounds. And then they would go and try to detangle them, so cut the tape and then try to also apply some medication for healing, and then try to get to another animal. And we do this on a regular basis as well.

Leena Manro (: 24:53

Wow. Well, that brings up so many thoughts for me. I'm thinking about how, A, look how polluted our oceans are, that there are so many dangers for these animals. And so basically round pieces of plastic.

Linda Lavergne (: 25:14

The round piece of plastic, and this could be anything. It could even be-

Leena Manro (: 25:17

And end up in the garbage, and then they end up in the ocean.

Linda Lavergne (: 25:21

Or perhaps somebody going to the beach and leaving their trash at the beach. That happens as well. Especially I would say since COVID, there's a lot more takeout food. You have people eating at the beach because the beach are becoming such a wonderful public space and where everybody wants to meet. However, just take your trash home, to do an effort. But it could be something small, like we're talking now the packing tape, it's quite large, but you could also be talking about the plastic ring that goes on the beverage cans.

Leena Manro (: 25:55

Right.

Linda Lavergne (: 25:55

You know you have six-

Leena Manro (: 25:56

Yes, the six pack, and you've got all those little rings, and so animals can get trapped in that.

Linda Lavergne (: 25:59

This could go for smaller animals as well.

Leena Manro (: 26:01

I see. I see. And so the disentanglement trips are specifically for that, where they will go to a location where it's very common.

Linda Lavergne (: 26:09

Yes, for the larger animals especially. It could be for a seal or stellar sea lions. It could be for where even that it's been reported perhaps to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans or the Marine Mammal Rescue Society, that they get basically the alert call to say there's an animal in distress.

Leena Manro (: 26:29

And is this also dangerous for the humans who are involved in the disentanglement piece?

Linda Lavergne (: 26:33

It is. It's an art, absolutely an art and dedication, and it takes a large team to get there, and the confidence as well. And also, I think you have to specialize as well in darting the animal at the right time, the right place, and get there fast. And you're fighting sometimes perhaps with the waves and the current and the rocks, because they're normally on the rocks.

Leena Manro (: 27:03

Oh, no.

Linda Lavergne (: 27:03

However, I absolutely recommend that if you watch on YouTube, there is some really great segment of the rescues as well, and this is how also the Vancouver Aquarium supports the Marine Mammal Rescue Center.

Leena Manro (: 27:16

Beautiful. Okay. So for our listeners and our viewers, if they want to see some more information and perhaps even see some of these rescues in action, you would go to their website, which is vammr.org.

Linda Lavergne (: 27:29

That's correct, yeah.

Leena Manro (: 27:30

The Vancouver, what is it again? Animal-

Linda Lavergne (: 27:33

So it's the Marine Mammal Rescue Society.

Leena Manro (: 27:36

The Marine Mammal Rescue Society. Okay.

Linda Lavergne (: 27:37

At the Vancouver Aquarium.

Leena Manro (: 27:39

VA, Vancouver aquarium probably, so vammr.org.

Linda Lavergne (: 27:42

That's correct, yeah.

Leena Manro (: 27:43

Okay, that's lovely.

Linda Lavergne (: 27:44

There's a good channel, and you'll learn a lot too.

Leena Manro (: 27:46

And the Vancouver Aquarium supports them in the sense of-

Linda Lavergne (: 27:48

Absolutely, we are.

Leena Manro (: 27:49

Financially? Is that part of it too?

Linda Lavergne (: 27:50

We are supporting them financially as well by our guests donating to the Rescue Center.

Leena Manro (: 27:57

So every dollar we spend when we go to the Vancouver Aquarium, some money goes to the rescue directly.

Linda Lavergne (: 28:03

Some of it goes to them, as well as our associates will ask if you wish to donate. And also you could donate online directly to the rescue center, and it is a non-for-profit organization.

Leena Manro (: 28:15

Amazing. Wow.

Linda Lavergne (: 28:17

And it's staffed basically with a lot of our staff. I would say a lot of volunteers are helping, especially in the summer months. They're not as busy now, but I would say probably starting next month and then April, that's when we get the call for abandoned seals or abandoned sea otters. And then so that's when they get very busy and all of our volunteers come back, and there are probably hundreds of volunteers at the Marine Mammal Society.

Leena Manro (: 28:44

Amazing. So Vancouver Aquarium is a very unique attraction in that the purpose of it is much more than just attracting visitors to see the sites. It's very much about the people, inclusivity, really helping people with children or anyone really with autism with some of the low sensory offerings you have, as well as supporting the Mammal Rescue Society. So there's a lot the Vancouver Aquarium does. And what advice would you have to other attraction spaces about what they could also be doing?

Linda Lavergne (: 29:23

Well, I've been approached by... The evening that we won the award last year, immediately, and this was at the gala dinner for the BC Tourism Conference, so we're talking about hundreds of people here in the tourism business. And immediately after I went back to our table, I was approached by people saying, "What are you doing?" So copying is the best flattery that one could have, and I said, "You need to start with one day. You need to start with one event, and you need to commit to it and to be open-minded."

(: 30:01

And that's how we started at the Vancouver Aquarium. We started by having one day where it was Access Day, which was basically celebrate... It was in conjunction with the United Nation World Access Day, and we invited partners as CAN Autism, the CNIB to come around, and PADS, which is Pacific Assistance Dog Society for service dogs, so everybody loves a puppy. And so we started with that, and then we thought, okay, once a year is not enough.

(: 30:32

And then for me to create the sensory-friendly hours and morning became really, really important, because I felt that we were excluding a lot of children that could really have a wonderful time with their parents and their sibling at the aquarium. And this is what I tell other organizations. Start with one day, commit. Ask questions, knock on the door of your tourism partners, because we're all in it for the same reason, that we want to be sure that we're inclusive to everyone and have a great time. I would say start with one day of that. Recruit, don't be afraid of recruiting also diverse people, because they bring so many more qualities and also point of view, and it makes your environment even a bit more kinder, I would say.

Leena Manro (: 31:27

Amazing. Well, I guess thank you so much for such a lovely and informative interview. I don't know if people realize that the Vancouver Aquarium was up to so good. Do you want to sing it? Do you want to?

Linda Lavergne (: 31:40

Up to so good.

Leena Manro (: 31:43

Up to so good. Well, thank you so much for your time, and once again, people can check out the Vancouver Aquarium website for more information as well as vammr.org, specifically for the Animal Rescue, and those links will be in our show notes in our podcast. And I want to thank you very much, Linda, for being our guest today.

Linda Lavergne (: 32:02

Thank you so much. My pleasure.

Leena Manro (: 32:04

Well, that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions or comments or show ideas, you can email us directly at hello@allpurpose.io. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time.