Beautifully Flawed: Filming Real Life

Leena Manro (: 00:00

Welcome to Up To So Good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose-driven business so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation.

(: 00:13

Hello, and welcome to Up To So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. Today's episode's a little different from some of the ones where we feature companies, and corporations, and talk about business being a purposeful experience. Today we're going to focus on an individual who has a very purposeful living. His name is Carl Bessai and he's a writer and director.

(: 00:31

Carl Bessai has made a name for himself in the world of independent cinema, as opposed to the big budget flashy Hollywood movies. Now, he has done some big budget projects as well, but he really focuses on human-centered stories, and he really intentionally includes diversity. I've worked with Carl in a movie called Sisters and Brothers, and I can tell you firsthand that this is a person who cares deeply about the people, and the projects, and is somebody who's definitely up to so good, in terms of the work he's doing in film and TV.

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If you are at all a cinephile, or aspiring writer or director, or anyone attached in any way to film and TV industry, this is a wonderful episode to watch. It's really inspiring and very heartfelt. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

(: 01:13

Hello, and welcome to Up To So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host, Leena Manro. And today we have a very special guest with us. His name is Carl Bessai. He's a very talented filmmaker. He was actually one of my directors way back when I used to do acting and stuff. And he's such an inspiring director. And for me personally in my own director's journey, I have fond memories of Carl, and look to him in my mind, to be like, "Well, how would Carl do this?" And maybe I oversimplified it, but I always thought, "How will Carl make something great with so little?" "How will Carl run around and not even tell people what he's doing, but just solve that problem?" As that's how I remembered working with you.

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How would you inspire creativity? And how would you collaborate with teams, with people, with actors? And so, thank you so much. Thank you for being such an inspiration to so many of us who want to make films that aren't just commercial, commercial, commercial, that we're working on films with purpose and films that matter.

Carl Bessai (: 02:15

I wanted to start by saying something about, from a story that I always think about when I think of business, because your show is about business. Do you remember the amazing Alastair Sim Scrooge Christmas Carol film from the 1950s?

Leena Manro (: 02:15

Yes, yes.

Carl Bessai (: 02:32

So you know what Christmas Carol, the Dickens story. And the ghost is asking him questions, and Scrooge is trying to defend himself. And he says, "I was just interested in business. This was just business. It was no hard feelings, it was just business." And the ghost says, "Mankind was your business," and yells it at him. And it becomes an echo in his head, "Mankind is your business. Why weren't you thinking about mankind?" And it was such an important moment in the story, which was the story set in Victorian England, a time when that division between the rich and the poor was accelerating like crazy.

Leena Manro (: 03:10

Wow.

Carl Bessai (: 03:10

And you think how, it's a film, it's a narrative, it's a story, it's storytelling, but this is something I think we have to always go back and remember. What's the reason? What is the purpose of business? Right? What is the purpose?

Leena Manro (: 03:24

Totally. Agreed.

Carl Bessai (: 03:25

It's for humanity.

Leena Manro (: 03:26

Agreed.

Carl Bessai (: 03:26

It's not just for a few.

Leena Manro (: 03:28

Yeah, that's, I think, where it's unfortunate. There are many ways that we've, I think, gone wrong, hurting this earth, hurting ourselves, hurting our souls. But by forgetting that, and chasing some other north star, you lose on such an opportunity to find fulfillment. And-

Carl Bessai (: 03:46

It's a complicated business, right? I mean, when I started out, when I started making films, it was very, very primitive. I didn't have a lot of money, I didn't have a lot of resources. I mean, there was a lot of barriers for me to get started. And I always remember discovering a thing called Dogma 95, which was a film that inspired me.

(: 04:07

It was a movement in cinema, started in Denmark. And the film that I'm thinking of is a film called The Celebration. It's a pretty famous film. You can see it. The director's Thomas Vinterberg. So him and Lars von Trier, and some other Danes cooked up this idea, which was a sort of reaction to commercial filmmaking. And they Said," what really matters in film? What really matters? The story matters, the acting matters. And after that, not that much matters. Not that much matters as much as those two elements."

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And so to really focus the lens on that, they decided they would create 10 commandments that stripped away the big industrial approach to cinema. Because if you think about cinema, a lot of how we go about making films has stayed with us since the early days of cinema, when cameras were huge, and if you wanted a dolly shot, you put this camera on an enormous set of tracks. And we still over-technologize our film sets.

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And nowadays, we're laughing about the LED lights in a vault set, how 20 years ago, these would've been tungsten lights. They would've been burning a lot of power, and they would've been really hot, and it would be a steam bath in here after 20 minutes.

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So the technology's changed, but sometimes our practices, our filmmaking practices, haven't kept up with some of the possibilities of change. So nowadays, I did an interview for a recent release of ours, and the lovely interviewer came to what I thought would be like a set with a massive equipment and all this stuff. And she had a cell phone and a little SLR camera, and she did it all herself as one can.

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And it's incredible. But we still are invested with some of these ideas of giant scale equals better. And I think there's a lot of ego in that as well. As a director, earlier parts of my career, I remember the first time I had city blocks blocked off with trucks, and this 40 vehicles, and all these barricades, and this was all for you. This was all for the greater glory of your film and your vision.

Leena Manro (: 06:15

Wow. Yeah.

Carl Bessai (: 06:15

And so how can you not work in that way and have it affect your ego, your sense of your value, your importance, all that stuff? And that stuff isn't important. What's really important is the truth. I think it is. And storytelling, good storytelling, it's fiction. It's not always, quote-unquote true, but the approach to good storytelling is truthful, is honest.

Leena Manro (: 06:39

I remember that about you. I remember that. It was incredible to see, because you did not have a lot of resources.

Carl Bessai (: 06:45

No. No.

Leena Manro (: 06:45

You were not only our director, but you were also one of DPs. You were the DP, and you were a cameraman, and you had two other people, I think, on camera running around. Right?

Carl Bessai (: 06:55

Yeah, I like to keep the scale down. I think-

Leena Manro (: 06:57

I don't remember being lots of lights.

Carl Bessai (: 06:58

No.

Leena Manro (: 06:58

Very little makeup. It's like you do your own makeup, and we just go, and shoot.

Carl Bessai (: 07:03

Yeah, I mean.

Leena Manro (: 07:03

And it was brilliant.

Carl Bessai (: 07:04

It gets the actors involved in a way that they're not used to being involved. And even to this day, the modern film set, an actor will show up, an actor will come to the set, an actor will wait, there'll be a lot of time lighting. The actor comes back, waits some more. There might be a little bit of blocking. And then they're running out of time, so they end up shooting the rehearsal, and the actor feels a little bit ripped off.

Leena Manro (: 07:28

It's true.

Carl Bessai (: 07:28

I feel like the center of cinematic storytelling is story, as in write a good script. And that's the cheapest part, right? I mean, you don't need a thousand people to write a good script. It's just time. So you need a great story. And then you need great acting.

Leena Manro (: 07:28

Agreed.

Carl Bessai (: 07:45

And the director's job is to make that possible. So how do you make it possible when the technical impediments to the actor are so numerous, when there's so much scale and interference? And not to say that big fantasy films, and the Dune films of the world don't require a certain scale. They do. It depends on what you want to make.

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But in Canada, where we are, in Western Canada where we are, the scale of the domestic filmmaking, the palette for storytellers based here, you don't have access to those kinds of resources. It's not going to happen. That's never been my goal. I mean, I've dabbled in American cinema for sure. I've made films in Europe, I've made films in LA, I've made films all around the world. But I don't have this desire to be a large industrial scale filmmaker because it plays against my strengths.

Leena Manro (: 08:41

I love that.

Carl Bessai (: 08:42

My strengths are intimate, and they're relationship based, and they're actor based.

Leena Manro (: 08:46

Well, I mean, we worked together over a decade ago and I never forgot that. And I took your lessons to heart, just by observing you, and how you were. At that time, I even saw it before I understood much of this, as I was just learning. But I remember you being a very much, almost like a slave to the truth. If you didn't get what you were asking for, you would get it out of us.

(: 09:11

And at the same time, I always felt like you were really humble, and never approached the craft from an arrogant or egotistical way. You were never... And that's a very big difference from the way a lot of directors work.

Carl Bessai (: 09:24

Sure.

Leena Manro (: 09:24

And to hear now also that you were always thinking about the actor, and in terms of the technical impediments in their way. I actually didn't know that, Carl. And I can tell you as an actor working with you, yeah, it's true. It was nice to be able to just be immersed in the story.

Carl Bessai (: 09:36

People, they want to look good, and you need sometimes help with all of these elements. I mean, no one feels necessarily that comfortable if the light's really terrible, and their makeup is awful, and their clothes suck, and all that stuff. But my approach is, just take more time, and get the actor more involved, and spend more time before you're shooting with the actor, and allow rehearsal, and improvisation, and exploration between you in conversation. Get all that in there, make that part of it. So the shooting is a sort of final part. Because you don't have the resources to buy the kind of time you need to scale up in the way that that big industrial film is being made.

(: 10:17

That's never been my situation. I mean, the biggest movie I've been able to raise money for is $6 million. Well, for me, this was huge. But 6 million in the grand scheme of the American juggernaut industry, this is a peanuts film. This is tiny.

Leena Manro (: 10:33

And what was that experience like?

Carl Bessai (: 10:34

Well, I mean, it was different. It was certainly a good experience. I had a lot of toys, I had a lot of tools. I had a lot of resources. I had a lot of people. Did I get a lot more time with the actors? Not really. Did I make a much, much better film? I don't think that you can say one is better than the other. I mean, what are you comfortable with?

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And my superpower, if there is one, is small and intimate. And I lose that as soon as I scale up. I just do. And look, people on film crews want to do a great job. Everyone does. No one's coming to a film set and they've got a job as a costume designer, they have a job as an art director, they don't come to the film set going, "Oh, I'm just going to dial this in today. I don't really care."

(: 11:20

They care. They're coming to bring everything that they've got. But the problem becomes when you have 50 people wanting to do the best that they possibly can, and being concerned about it being the best they possibly can, imagine how many conversations have to happen so everyone gets to fully realize to the best of their ability, their job. I respect it, but it takes time.

Leena Manro (: 11:43

Yes.

Carl Bessai (: 11:43

And that takes resources. And those resources have to come from somewhere. Now when your film, when you need 10 million to make a movie, and you have a market that's paying peanuts for streaming, or has very little return, you look at your investors, and you go, "Okay, it'll give me all this money. And then what you're going to get back is this tiny sliver you might get back." That's a big ask.

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So this is one of the difficulties with the business of filmmaking. There are films, of course, that are successfully making their money back. There are films that are able to pay back that level of investment. There are, but it's a handful. It's a high risk business.

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So I'm not going to ask someone to make that kind of investment unless I'm going to as well. So to me, I've got to be able to look the person in the eye and say, "This is a risk. I'm taking this risk because of these reasons. I believe in this project. You have to be comfortable with the risk to take it with me or not." And that's a lot to ask, and not everyone has the stamina for that.

Leena Manro (: 12:55

Can you share with us some of the smaller budgets you work with? And what those films-

Carl Bessai (: 12:58

Yeah, I mean, I'll scale down to like a hundred thousand dollars. It's probably as low as I've gone. The joy in the small footprint movie is huge. I mean, the film we're just releasing right now is called Field Sketches. It is a small narrative film about an architect. And so, he's decided to scale back his business, because the larger version of his business, the making of buildings, the designing of buildings, has pushed him into a more commercial space, and he doesn't feel right with that. He can't square with it.

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So he's let his partnership go, he's scaled down his business. Then what he realizes is that it's hard to make a living. It doesn't quite work. The art for art's sake version of his architecture practice isn't really working. So he sells his house, he pulls the plug on everything, and he goes out to contemplate his future in the middle of nowhere.

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And for him, the middle of nowhere is this place in Saskatchewan, which is actually based on a real live place in my life, which is a family farm where my father grew up, and that exists to this day. And I've always wanted to film there, because it's a keeper of the past. It's a kind of museum almost, of this early prairie history in Saskatchewan that my German immigrant family built.

(: 14:28

And so we went and filmed there. I flew the actors to Regina, we filmed all these amazing scenes. And in this storyline, he gets a little bit caught up in an almost fantastical conversation with different people that he's aspired to be, that people that are influential to him. And the outcome is that he realizes he's got to get back to work and rethink things, because you can't get by without working. You need to continue. You need to make business and art meet somewhere for it to work. So that's the kind of moral of the story. So in a way, I think the film is kind of appropriate for this conversation.

Leena Manro (: 15:05

Oh yeah, definitely.

Carl Bessai (: 15:07

But the scale of this movie was small. It was deliberately small because my lead actor, who is a close personal friend of mine, but someone that I also felt kind of represented me in some personal visual way almost, is a guy named Vincent Gale, actor from Vancouver. You'd see him on lots of shows. He's a lead on Allegiance. He's had a really robust career being a supporting lead to large American movies, and some of the stuff, the work that comes through town. But he's not often the lead, which is I think one of the curses of being a Canadian actor. You're here filling in. The movie stars come from California and you've got to fill in where you can.

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And so for him to be the lead, he was very excited. And we worked really carefully and closely together on the story. And so with that, working in that way, the scale has to be small.

(: 16:02

And also, I like the scale being small like that, because you can make adjustments and changes to the trajectory of the film, the story. It's working like this. And then you see an opportunity and you can make very deft, simple changes on the fly. You invent as you go along. For example, we shot over an elongated schedule of about six months. We didn't shoot every day, but we were able to have certain pieces of the main unit at certain times a year, because I wanted the film to feel like a year had gone by. And the last unit we shot was in Germany, in Berlin, because the characters in his mind goes back to these stories that are part of his family history that takes place in Europe.

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And so we went to Berlin, and we flew to Berlin, and we brought my camera stuff with me. And I got my crew in Berlin, and I got my friends who were actors in Berlin to join us. And everything was being worked on, and rediscovered, and built, and invented as we went. Now it's very hard to go to a big investor, and go, "Hey, you know what? I'm going to just make this up as I go along, and you got to trust me." I have some small investors who are willing to play along like that, but you have to work at an appropriate level for what it is you're trying to do.

(: 17:29

And so that's what we did. And I showed the film at the VIFF Centre, the Canadian Theatrical, we're doing Vancouver, we're doing Toronto, we're showing it in Regina, we're going to show it in Edmonton. Small beans, right? We don't make a ton of money. We get small houses. But man, the film, it's beautiful. And it's beautiful to see an audience come, and they don't have expectations, because it's not a movie star movie. It's not a big scale movie. It's not a movie they've been hearing about in every blog and every site. It's just out of the blue. And it's a truthful movie. It's an honest movie. Yeah.

Leena Manro (: 18:06

Yeah, I'm not surprised, actually. I'd love to see it. I mean, are you doing another showing here?

Carl Bessai (: 18:10

We're not.

Leena Manro (: 18:10

Oh.

Carl Bessai (: 18:10

Not right now. Maybe there'll be something coming up, but yeah, it'll come on. Usually my stuff, because I have a distributor in the States that I work with pretty steadily on these smaller projects specifically, and they set up great streaming.

Leena Manro (: 18:28

Oh, nice.

Carl Bessai (: 18:29

They do pretty well with the streaming, so I'll let you know when I have-

Leena Manro (: 18:29

Please.

Carl Bessai (: 18:29

Yeah, yeah.

Leena Manro (: 18:32

I would love to see it. I would love to see it.

Carl Bessai (: 18:32

Yeah, it'll come online fairly soon.

Leena Manro (: 18:37

So there's two things about, I think, your style that are especially relevant to our listeners and viewers. One, it's the fact that you haven't sold out. You are doing films that you care about, films that matter, films that are truthful. That's really amazing. And how has that been for you? I mean, is there a lot of pressure then to do more of the commercial?

Carl Bessai (: 19:00

Well, it's hard. It's hard, because you want to balance it. I used to have a philosophy of one for them, one for me. This was my thing. So I'd go like, "Okay, well, I have to do a more commercial movie." So I would do a zombie picture, and then I would do a personal art film, and then I would do a horror film, and then I'd do a personal art film.

(: 19:16

But it doesn't always work out that way. It's easier said than done. And honestly, I think I'm just better at small dramas than I am at big budget comedies. I think I'm better at small dramas than I am at gore fests. That it's hard for me to be really honest and to be really good at my job when I don't like the material that much. It's a terrible thing to say, but it's just, I have trouble pretending. I need to care. I need to find a way to care.

(: 19:54

For example, I did a zombie movie. The reason I was good, and the reason I made it, and the reason I cared was because, we called it an eco zombie film. It was a film about an infection that happens in the Pacific Northwest. And it gets into the trees, and there's a whole confrontation between the logging community and the protest community that's dealing with old growth forests. And that was a topic that I found really interesting.

(: 20:21

And so I built it into the DNA of the story. But there's an enviro kind of subtext there, and if you can care about the idea, then it's gravy.

Leena Manro (: 20:31

Amazing.

Carl Bessai (: 20:31

Everything becomes fun and amazing to do.

Leena Manro (: 20:34

And I think that's the power of storytelling. People who are in this profession, be it directors, producers, writers, all of us, we have this ability with our storyteller abilities to really impact the world and making stories that matter. And so that's an incredible example of one where you've intertwined some sort of an eco context to it.

Carl Bessai (: 20:53

You have to care.

Leena Manro (: 20:54

What's the name of the movie?

Carl Bessai (: 20:55

It's called Severed, which is-

Leena Manro (: 20:57

The movie Severed?

Carl Bessai (: 20:57

Yeah, Severed-

Leena Manro (: 20:58

I'm going to watch this.

Carl Bessai (: 20:58

... because you have to cut the heads off of the people, but it's also severed because they're cut off from the community.

Leena Manro (: 21:04

Ah, beautiful.

Carl Bessai (: 21:04

So it's a very violent, intense little movie. But I think it has something to say.

Leena Manro (: 21:14

That's brilliant.

Carl Bessai (: 21:15

And this is, I think, important. And I find sometimes, the jobs, the sort of work for hire that comes specifically through the networks in this part of the world, some of those scripts, some of those projects, if you don't have the story, even if you have the actors, and you have the ability to get the most out of the actors, which I feel like-

Leena Manro (: 21:16

You don't have the-

Carl Bessai (: 21:41

... I generally have a great-

Leena Manro (: 21:42

You do. Yeah.

Carl Bessai (: 21:43

... relationship with actors. And I feel like the cast gives it everything they've got every time we go out to make something. But if the story's not quite there-

Leena Manro (: 21:43

Kind of broken.

Carl Bessai (: 21:53

... it's tough. It's hard.

Leena Manro (: 21:54

But you're also a very good storyteller. And so when you have a script that you're a director for hire on, are you able to go in and fix the story a bit?

Carl Bessai (: 22:03

I mean, it depends. It really depends on the willingness of the producers. And sometimes you are in sync and sometimes you're not. I mean, sometimes there is just a will, and it comes from the money, of course, but there's a will to have something that is pure slasher, pure genre, that what your ideas are doing, you're bringing these ideas to the table and you're trying to penetrate this kind of genre film with something more meaningful or something that you feel you can kind of bite on, and that is pushing the investors in the wrong direction.

Leena Manro (: 22:03

Really?

Carl Bessai (: 22:39

Yeah, you just can't. They just don't want that.

Leena Manro (: 22:39

Oh, that's frustrating.

Carl Bessai (: 22:42

They want it to be down and dirty, or they want it to be fast and furious. They're not interested in too much thought there.

Leena Manro (: 22:50

That breaks my heart a little.

Carl Bessai (: 22:51

Well, it used to be called the entertainment business, right? And unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on what side of the coin you sit on, a lot of entertainment is pretty vacuous. It's not... And I mean, to me, we're losing touch with writing. We're losing touch with our ability to really understand narrative in a way that, I mean, I don't know if you've ever read Brontes, if you've ever read Jane Eyre, or you've ever read any... I mean, just the skill of the word smithing in these writers from the 1800s, it's incredible. And I think young people, I think... Shakespeare, thank God, is still a big part of the education system, but I think people really have difficulty with the complexities of the language.

(: 23:43

And to me, that's books, that's where all the stories are. There's seven stories. You read them over and over again. But the way, it's the smithing of them, it's the way they're created, woven. I mean, that's incredible. So I read a lot. I mean, it's one of my main practices, is just at all, every opportunity I want to read as much as I can. That's where the ideas are. And when I try to take those ideas and... I'm doing a film right now, it's my new project. It's called, it's a crazy stupid title, but I'm going to tell you because I'm just trying it on and seeing how much I like it, but right now it's called, Four or Five Things I Want You to Know About Me.

Leena Manro (: 24:21

Say it again?

Carl Bessai (: 24:22

Four or Five Things I Want You to Know About Me.

Leena Manro (: 24:25

Four or five things?

Carl Bessai (: 24:29

Four or Five Things I Want You to Know About Me.

Leena Manro (: 24:29

Okay.

Carl Bessai (: 24:31

And it's, I call it a film essay. So it's not a documentary, it's not a fiction film, it's a kind of rambly, 75 minute movie about this handful of characters who are in dramatic scenes with one another, but also sort of breaking the fourth wall and talking to you about things that are on their mind-

Leena Manro (: 24:52

Ah, very interesting.

Carl Bessai (: 24:52

... which is why it's called that. And it's just loaded up with all of the things that I sit around and think about. AI, what's going on with AI? How does this affect our world? The environment, housing, capitalism, I mean, all of the things that are just part of the DNA of being human in 2025. Race, gender, I mean, it's a fantastic time to be alive. We're articulating so many things. And I don't know, what's a filmmaker supposed to do? What is your job?

Leena Manro (: 25:26

That's actually, you brought up an interesting, there's a few points that I'd like to go back to, but the idea of AI, what are your thoughts?

Carl Bessai (: 25:34

Well, I actually think that, you can think whatever you want about AI, AI is powerful, profound, and not going backwards. It's not. We're not putting this genie back in the bottle. It's not happening.

(: 25:48

So I think you have to look at it from the point of view, from my point of view as an artist, I feel like AI is a incredible set of tools that we need to be aware of, and we need to work with. We do.

(: 26:01

But I also feel like, increasingly, what is interesting about being human is going to come into relief against the profundities of AI. And what I mean by that is that being human is to be flawed, to be an error, to be largely full of mistakes. So all of the aberrations of being human. And when I talk about being human, also, in my art, when I look at my films, or when I work on my films, sometimes the acting is good, sometimes it's not as good as it can be. Sometimes the camera is good, sometimes it's not as good as... There's no perfection in my work.

(: 26:36

And I literally struggle to keep the imperfections breathing and alive in the work. I want the imperfections. Imperfection is the thing that makes me human. The weird collaging of seemingly unrelated topics that might drive some viewers crazy, is there's no logic in it, that's being human. But I think about sports a lot. If you ask someone to buy a $500 ticket to go see the final of, say a hockey game or a soccer match, and it's being played by robots who are perfect at the sport, no one would buy that ticket. Why would you buy that ticket?

Leena Manro (: 27:18

That's a good analogy.

Carl Bessai (: 27:19

It's the fact that we're going to see the possibility of greatness, or failure, or both, that's what we're interested in. Who wants to watch a hundred-meter race between eight athletes on the track who run a perfect nine seconds flat because they're programmed with robotic powers?

Leena Manro (: 27:39

That's true.

Carl Bessai (: 27:39

It's so boring. "Oh, they all crossed the line in nine seconds flat. Wow, I didn't need to see that." You know what I mean?

Leena Manro (: 27:47

You are on that path where you are somebody who, from the outside, it seems like you've always been living your purpose. Would you agree with that?

Carl Bessai (: 27:57

Yeah, I try to. Sometimes it's frustrating. Like I've noticed as an aging human, suddenly I went from being a young up and comer, to being this old experienced guy. And you sort of think, God, how did that happen? Where did that time go?

(: 28:13

So I started doing this thing. My wife got me onto this because she said, "You should think about this. You should do this." As you push toward what is called the last third of your life, which is hard to imagine I'm pushing toward the last third of my life now. So I look at the first two thirds, and try to understand it, my life in thirds. And in those first two thirds, what were you doing? Go through your memories. What were you up to? What did you aspire to? What did you get caught up in? Everything you can think of, you just ramble it out.

(: 28:45

And the purpose of this exercise is to come to the place where, in your final third you make some adjustments. What do you want to do now that you haven't done? How would you do this last third differently? It's an exercise that we first heard about, we got talking about this because Jane Fonda was doing a podcast with, I think, Tina Fey. And she was in this process, and she said, "When I was in this middle part of my life, which is usually considered the power years, your thirties, or say for an actor, maybe even younger, but twenties, thirties, forties, these are your big earning years, your power years, whatever.

(: 29:24

And as you get into your fifties, things change. So what she felt was that she'd been a really terrible mother. And she said, "I just wasn't there for my kids. And you can't have that back. It's not coming back to you. You don't get another chance." But she said, "But I'm going to be a great grandmother. That's my commitment for that last third."

Leena Manro (: 29:46

Wow.

Carl Bessai (: 29:47

Jane's, obviously, a lot older than I am, and this was probably a little while ago. But I love this idea. I think you have always the opportunity to look toward change, to embrace change, to make change, to learn from mistakes, but not dwell on those things. And I think that's the greatest difficulty, how do you stay present and not get bogged down in the past or bogged down in the worries of the future? Present, present, present, that's why they call it the present. Right?

Leena Manro (: 30:23

Well, you brought up so many things now, my goodness. So would you be willing to share how the first couple of thirds, the themes of those, and how-

Carl Bessai (: 30:31

Well, just going back to filmmaking, do you remember when I said that whole ego that revolved around scaling up all the time? It just really has occurred to me quite recently how unnecessary it is to build, that your ego doesn't have to be tied to these things. That this sort of, you are not better just because more there's more money involved. And I mean, back to business, I think there's a really unfortunate equation between riches, between financial success, and their quality as a human being.

Leena Manro (: 30:31

I agree.

Carl Bessai (: 31:06

I don't think that those things are tied together, but there's this perception that someone, if we're listening to them talk and they've made millions, and millions, and millions of dollars, that somehow what they have to say is more valid than what someone has to say who's made nothing. That we automatically equate financial success with wisdom. And this is just erroneous, just crazy.

Leena Manro (: 31:28

Totally.

Carl Bessai (: 31:29

But that's our culture, right? And I think that we have to blame, we have to lay this at the feet of capitalism, to some extent. Capitalism is a great concept, but it needs checks and balances. Without the checks and balances, it becomes a kind of crazy free for all.

(: 31:45

And I think if you don't have a guide rail, guard rails that keeps society in some semblance of fairness, I mean, we need balances. We need balances. And for me, just going through my life in that kind of thirds, I started to realize, yeah, I am not what I earn. I am not. That is not the definition of me. And what is success?

(: 32:11

In the film biz, we talk a lot about, I have so many meetings in my life with distributors, and agents, and really, really rich people, and there is this equation between money and good film. Again, I tear down this equation. I do not think that something that makes a lot of money necessarily means that it is what is considered good storytelling or a good film. I mean, these are very subjective ideas, but I don't think it's a direct relationship.

Leena Manro (: 32:40

And so when I think about those scripts that you've worked on, and of course, you don't have to name any names or anything like that, but the scripts that you've worked on where it's like in the scenarios where it's the financiers and the people with the money who won't let you tinker with their script, because they have a formula that works, or they have something they want to do, be it a slasher or zombie, whatever it is, it's interesting that, again, like what you just said, if they could just relax a little and recognize that, what if we made a good story? What if you could have it all? What if you made a good story, but then you had the backing of the people with the money to market it?

Carl Bessai (: 33:14

Yeah, yeah.

Leena Manro (: 33:15

What if you had one that was also an impactful story?

Carl Bessai (: 33:17

But I mean, it's really tricky to break this down, but I don't think there's anyone in Hollywood working at a high level who's a stupid person. I mean, these are really, really smart people.

Leena Manro (: 33:17

Yeah, I agree with you.

Carl Bessai (: 33:29

They're smart and they're really experienced. So somehow, somehow there's this little-

Leena Manro (: 33:37

It breaks scale.

Carl Bessai (: 33:38

... little piece that just gets lost. And it's a really, really trick... Because, no one, I've never met anyone who sets out to make a bad film.

Leena Manro (: 33:38

Totally. Agreed.

Carl Bessai (: 33:45

No one sets out to make a derivative-

Leena Manro (: 33:47

Agreed.

Carl Bessai (: 33:47

... copycat stupid movie. I mean, maybe some people do, but not many, right?

Leena Manro (: 33:48

Yeah.

Carl Bessai (: 33:52

And so how has that breakdown happen? What happens? I think it's just different understandings of what story is. I think it's different ideas about what quality is. I think it's different priorities about what the tone or idea should be.

(: 34:04

Sometimes it's like, it's as silly as you have an actor whose name and participation in the movie guarantees a box office, or guarantees a financial return, but that actor isn't all that interested in the fundamentals of the film, or maybe doesn't do the homework, or maybe doesn't even really care that much. And then you have this little...

(: 34:29

Or maybe they care, but the director and that actor don't see eye to eye on certain kind of thematic topics or whatever. And then things break down. And I mean, this stuff happens. Personally, I don't want to come across as an advocate for no-money filmmaking, because this isn't a living.

(: 34:46

If all you do is run around and make $10,000 movies on your cell phone, I have a lot of respect for that, because I actually think there's a lot of truth in it. And what I want, all I really care about is, I need some latitude with the story, and I need to be able to work for a long time with the actors, and by that I mean, even in the process of creating the story. The more I can kind of have the actors be part of my merry band-

Leena Manro (: 35:14

Beautiful.

Carl Bessai (: 35:14

... and we can spend time together.

Leena Manro (: 35:16

And I think, well, the thing about the lower budgets, I mean, the negatives, of course, you're right, everyone does need to get paid. And it's not sustainable, really. But at the same time, it also allows for a lot more accessibility and freedom when you're on set. In some ways, being free of the constraint of a big budget is kind of a good thing. Right?

Carl Bessai (: 35:39

I mean, look, to me, if I just go purely on creative experience, passion, and fun, plain old fun-

Leena Manro (: 35:48

Yes.

Carl Bessai (: 35:49

... these films, the improvised low budget art house films that I've done, are by far my favorite. Just they were great to work on. And the people that I made them with are the people I still hang out with.

Leena Manro (: 36:04

I mean, I think for the most part, I can say here at All Purpose, we work that, kind of because we have to. Our budgets aren't always that big. But I don't know, I can't speak for everyone here, I've had a lot of a tremendous amount of fun. And also, you're kind of forced to be a problem solver, because you don't have enough money to hire every single person who's a specialist in that field. So you wear a lot of hats. You solve a lot of problems.

Carl Bessai (: 36:24

And I think that people with the open-mindedness to try different things and to manage their life with different kind of attributes, skill sets, that's the move.

Leena Manro (: 36:33

Totally.

Carl Bessai (: 36:34

It'll keep you happy. Because, if you just go all in on something and you don't get to have that creativity, but you're trading it for money, after a while, you're going to start scratching your head and going, "Where did my life go?"

(: 36:46

And so, I'm not a rich man. I get by. But I am a creatively engaged man, and I'll take it. And filmmaking is, for me, very personal. So one of the things that I kind of look for, I have to feel like something, there's a piece of this that is my story to tell. But that's a limited palette. I mean, if all you're doing is just telling your own story, you run out of story after a while.

(: 37:19

And so I started, years ago when I started my career, it was very personal. And I did a second film and it was very personal. And I did a third film and it was very personal. And then I got a little bit, I kind of ran out a little bit. I ran out of fume. I was a bit like, "Okay, so what's left to mine? I need some time to fill the well."

(: 37:42

And then I started this opening my mind up, and realizing that the process, the practice has to be exploratory. You got to be curious. You got to look around. What is going on in the world? Who is interesting to you and what can you... That's the filmmakers job. It's like the insect with the antennas, feeling around in the dark for the next thing. What is that thing?

(: 38:07

,And so I've made it a practice of being curious, trying to be curious, and find a way to collaborate. And I call it collaboration because I think, sometimes the stories aren't mine to tell, they're mine to tell with. They're mine, it's the opportunity is to collaborate with someone. And that's why I actually feel like we have to be careful how a aggressive we are about difference.

(: 38:35

Because what I hate to see happen is people be driven away from each other because they're quote-unquote different. That if you say to me, "No, a South Asian story is only for South Asian people." Or you say, "An indigenous story is only for indigenous people," and you start to segregate the culture because it's important to be respectful, and you take away the opportunity for this cross-pollination, it's a problem.

(: 39:01

And I feel like sometimes I see that problem on screen. I feel like we want filmmakers to want to have diversity in their movies, not less, but more.

(: 39:13

Not to say that color isn't important, and we shouldn't say we see color. I don't think that that's something we can pretend doesn't exist. It exists. And I have come from a historically privileged world. I see that all the time. When I travel, I never have any problems and other people do. So I'm not taking away from that. But I love that it's welcome for me in my work to have an Asian character, to have a Black character, to have a South Asian character, to have an indigenous character, and to have that conversation all the time. I want to have that. And I want them to listen to me, and I want to listen to them.

Leena Manro (: 39:51

What's amazing too is you were doing this way before it became sort of the thing, before it blew up. I mean, you were having this... I met you back in 2009, I think, or something, 2010. And even then you were really actively pulling in people of all backgrounds, when mainstream media really wasn't.

(: 40:10

To them, adding color was usually, this was actually very disillusioning for me, partly why I left the industry a bit, because it was just for one or two lines here as the nurse, or as a doctor or something. And that's not really adding diversity. But you actually took it to another level, where you would actively create stories, and have these people. Like, you pulled me in, for example, to help co-create that story that involved the South Asian character, which was really amazing.

Carl Bessai (: 40:42

Which is how I learn about your community. I mean, how else am I going to learn about it? When I was a kid in the 1970s, we had a lot of refugees coming from Vietnam. And I grew up in Alberta, and my family sponsored a family. They lived with us for a year. I mean, that was my childhood, growing up with people who didn't speak English, living in my house and wanting to repay us with meals that they made. And having to kind of-

Leena Manro (: 41:07

Amazing.

Carl Bessai (: 41:07

I mean, I'm this a little white kid in '70s, Alberta, but it was like that was normal to me.

Leena Manro (: 41:14

And I love that you cared about the authenticity too. And when we were doing Fathers and Sons, you were very much like, but wanting to say as authentic to the actual culture, which is why you didn't hire just some rando choreographer. You pulled in one... And Monroe is like, "She's a Bollywood choreo?" no, wasn't even that experienced. I mean, I had studied Bollywood dance when I was a kid and stuff like that.

Carl Bessai (: 41:14

It was great.

Leena Manro (: 41:36

But it was a lot more real than somebody who, for example... I was actually in, I was cast in this short film that was this Bollywood dance-y type of thing, right? And they had a choreographer who had no Bollywood experience to do this big Bollywood production.

Carl Bessai (: 41:47

That's terrible.

Leena Manro (: 41:48

I was like, what are you guys doing? Right? Terrible. I remember him making me do these weird moves. I thought, that's not Bollywood. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm stuck. I'm like, what you say? What do you do? But that's when...

Carl Bessai (: 41:59

But when someone who isn't from your community is interested in your community, and wants to celebrate your community, and does it with you-

Leena Manro (: 41:59

Oh yeah, that's amazing.

Carl Bessai (: 42:08

... then they should be welcomed.

Leena Manro (: 42:09

Yeah.

Carl Bessai (: 42:09

They should be welcomed.

Leena Manro (: 42:09

It's like day and night.

Carl Bessai (: 42:10

They shouldn't be told, "No, no, no, you can't do that because you're not part of the community." I mean, how do we get on in the world-

Leena Manro (: 42:10

Agreed. Yes.

Carl Bessai (: 42:17

... if we don't move in this direction?

Leena Manro (: 42:18

Yeah, that's part of the idea of collaboration.

Carl Bessai (: 42:20

Totally. I say this with my kids all the time-

Leena Manro (: 42:23

There's so much opportunity.

Carl Bessai (: 42:25

... without struggle, man, you don't have a hope. The struggle, the difficulties in your life are really, really great teachers.

Leena Manro (: 42:34

Aren't they though?

Carl Bessai (: 42:35

Yes.

Leena Manro (: 42:36

It's so true. It's so true.

Carl Bessai (: 42:38

So I mean, if it was so easy, you would be like, what's it worth?

Leena Manro (: 42:42

Yeah, that's true.

Carl Bessai (: 42:43

And you probably hear that from everyone who comes in here.

Leena Manro (: 42:46

No.

Carl Bessai (: 42:46

Especially with people who are really doing things that have kind of self-sacrifice in the DNA.

Leena Manro (: 42:52

So a lot of people don't say that. And I have to admit, I don't know that we've really explored that angle so much. And I think part of it's because, when we bring people on board on this show, because it's about the purpose of business.

Carl Bessai (: 42:52

Sure.

Leena Manro (: 43:04

But I think business includes film. I mean, film is a business.

Carl Bessai (: 43:07

It does. And I just mean like-

Leena Manro (: 43:08

But it's one of the hardest businesses as well.

Carl Bessai (: 43:09

But entrepreneurs are always successful because they had a problem. They had a problem and they had to drill down deep into figuring out how to fix the problem, how to solve the problem. Where do you think the light bulb comes from? It's just, all these things that we've cooked up are reactions to our problems.

Leena Manro (: 43:27

But I think that the filmmaking industry though, is really rife with problems. It's just filled. And a lot of the entrepreneurs that we meet here, sometimes actually they're further along in their journey, where they have a pretty successful product, where they're doing really, really well. And so, I mean, to be honest, I think this is great. This exploration of that gift that is within struggle, you don't have quite as much.

Carl Bessai (: 43:27

Right, sure.

Leena Manro (: 43:48

I mean, I should explore it more. That's on me.

Carl Bessai (: 43:50

Well, because, yeah, this is back to this idea, we tend to gravitate toward and want to celebrate people who are succeeding at something. We want to learn from them. Don't we? I mean, we do, right? We have TED talks by people who are doing cool stuff and have really nailed it. And we want to hear, how'd you do that?

Leena Manro (: 44:08

But you are succeeding, though, Carl.

Carl Bessai (: 44:10

No, I get it.

Leena Manro (: 44:10

You're incredibly successful.

Carl Bessai (: 44:10

But I just mean, but this idea is, it's interesting that there is a lot to be said for the journey, the struggle. And also, this is the other thing, that journey, man, it never ends. It doesn't end. The time you spend learning, you don't just get to a place where you know it. That's why I read a lot.

(: 44:32

And I'm sitting here, one of my biggest passions is learning how to figure out things that I don't understand technically, by watching these geniuses on YouTube, who always have an amazing hack, they've always got the answer. It's cool. You keep learning.

(: 44:51

So one of the things I had to do at one point was take a course, which was about the greening of the film industry and strategies for sort of making a lighter footprint. And I'm doing this course, and I'm looking at these case studies and whatever, and I'm laughing to myself, because I mean, it's not illegit. These are good ideas. They're legitimate, looking at ways in which these big productions have saved waste, and whatever. These small footprint films I'm making are, by very nature-

Leena Manro (: 45:21

Yes.

Carl Bessai (: 45:22

... a hundred percent-

Leena Manro (: 45:23

Much more eco friendly.

Carl Bessai (: 45:23

... a light footprint.

Leena Manro (: 45:24

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I've never thought of that.

Carl Bessai (: 45:27

I don't have crazy amounts of garbage waste and catering. The last film-

Leena Manro (: 45:31

We didn't have food. No, I'm kidding.

Carl Bessai (: 45:32

... when we shot in Vancouver for the Field Sketches scenes that were in Vancouver, every day, my wife and daughter, because it just timed out, and they're my friends, and they loved to support my work, would drive over to the set with lunch in a pot. And we'd sit down and eat, and use the cutlery from the Airbnb, whatever, that had made the deal with this family who owned this place. And you just sort of go with what you can. And the idea that I've got to have this very structured approach to waste, I think you have to on these bigger scale things-

Leena Manro (: 46:12

On the bigger scale things, yeah.

Carl Bessai (: 46:13

... but it does say a lot about the power of the small.

Leena Manro (: 46:17

Yeah, it'd be nice. I feel like maybe there's a world where there are more films being made that, A, they matter. They're kinder sets, more collaboration, made on a lower budget, but sold so that money could float to everyone, so that they're also financially somewhat rewarding.

(: 46:36

It doesn't mean that every film's going to make millions and millions, but just enough that people can sustain themselves, and they can continue making these stories that matter.

Carl Bessai (: 46:43

Yeah, well said.

Leena Manro (: 46:44

Thank you for being somebody who inspires really good filmmaking, and for continuing to make films that matter, inspiring all of us to do that too. I think I'm going to take one of your classes. I'm going to find out where they are. I'm going to stalk you now after this, now that I know, now that you're back.

Carl Bessai (: 46:45

Funny.

Leena Manro (: 46:59

That you're back in my life.

Carl Bessai (: 47:00

Nice.

Leena Manro (: 47:01

Anyway, thank you so much, Carl.

Carl Bessai (: 47:02

Thank you.

Leena Manro (: 47:03

Well, that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button, or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions or comments, or show ideas, you can email us directly at hello@allpurpose.io. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time.